Pacers Keep Winning, But Spotty Offense Keeps Nagging
by Glenn A. on Jan 21, 2012 2:16 PM EST
in Indiana Pacers News
Email
PrintSometimes you need to vent. Fourteen games in and the Pacers have undeniably shown more good than bad so far in their 2011-2012 campaign. Yet, even after 10 wins, and even after a thrilling finish last night in Oakland that went in the Pacers' favor, I find myself frustrated. Frustrated is the sentiment, mostly because there are bad habits (particularly on the offensive end) that players continue to exhibit that don't seem to have ever been addressed by fellow teammates and/or coaching. As usual, leave it to the fans to enlighten the seemingly blind, or, in this case, a fan. My sure-to-be-impressive resume? A 27-second stint on the eighth-grade basketball team that included possibly the most efficient dribbling-out-of-the-clock routine one may have ever had the pleasure to witness.
After the jump, a plea to Coach Vogel, Larry Bird, Danny Granger, or any relevant individual associated with the Pacers who wields the power to change...
As a team, the Indiana Pacers shoot 41.5% from the field, bad enough for 27th in the league. If given the time, I'm positive Indycornrow's statistical savant, Ian Levy, could pinpoint exactly the how, when, where, and why the offensive breakdowns occur. And we'd all listen, because Ian knows his stuff, and he knows exactly how to explain/describe complicated concepts in a way that a statistical illiterate (such as myself) can comprehend. Count me as one, however, who doesn't view the failures on offense as all that much of a mystery. Simply watch and you will see. There are certain cringe-worthy situations on offense that once they begin, I automatically begin mentally prepping myself for a lost possession. There are three to be exact, and here they are through the eyes of one lowly fan:
David West Post on the Left Low Block (facing the ball handler)
David West is not what I'd call a natural post player. What seems to make him even more unnatural are his post attempts on the left low block. What usually occurs here is West, using his left hand, dribbles into the defender. His strength usually backs down the defender in a sufficient way, but when it comes time to make a move, three things usually occur: 1. West hooks his defender with the right elbow that many times elicits an offensive foul, or 2. West gets away with the hook, and wildly attempts a left-handed something that is either easily blocked or badly missed, or 3. West's weak dribbling hand is easily stripped in the lane by converging defenders leading to a turnover. My plea: keep West on the right block in post situations. Even more preferably, keep him in situations that allow him to face-up/pick-and-pop.
Danny Granger/Paul George Isolations
Danny Granger and Paul George are not what I'd call natural ball handlers. What seems to make them even more unnatural are attempts to make them playmakers in an iso situation. In such situations, scoring points is an afterthought. Instead, I often find myself wondering what play would elicit the higher percentage of lost possessions/turnovers per occurrence: Granger's inevitable push off with either hand, or Geroge's uncontrolled barreling in the lane. My pleas: 1. Keep Granger spotting up for jumpshots, or keep him in the post where dribbling is at a protective premium. Seriously consider banning dribble drives from his game altogether. 2. Allow George two dribble drives for development purposes. Otherwise? Spot him up or have him be a cutter.
Danny Granger/Paul George Fastbreaks
Believe me, I wish I was done with them as well. It's well-documented the Pacers are one the league's finest defensive teams early in the season. One area it particularly excels at is taking the ball away from the opposition. The Pacers average 9.4 steals per game, good enough for 6th in the league. The problem? Granger and George comprise two of the team's most effective thieves, which also means they lead a lot of fastbreaks. It's often a torturous process to watch: no matter if it's a two-one-one, three-on-one, or even a four-on-one fastbreak, Granger or George bust out the tunnel vision and decide to go right at the defender. Charges occur. Missed layups occur. Bad shots occur. Right now, this is easily my most dreaded offensive situation on the team. My plea: Basketball 101: on a fastbreak put the ball in your best playmaker's hand (Collison, Hill, Stephenson) in order to elicit a confident and effective decision.
Honorable Mentions
Roy Hibbert's Reverse Layup
This used to easily win my "most dreaded offensive play" award. To Hibbert's credit this season, he's really cut down on his attempts to extend his spider-like arm under the basket for two. Fears were reawakened, however, when he attempted to do so against the Kings, and was quickly blocked by what seemed like twenty different arms.
Dahntay Jones' Offense Initiation
Dahntay gets a pass from being featured on the themed list since his offensive involvement played a huge role in the win against Golden St. Other fans I'm sure won't be so kind.
31 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Agreed for the most part.
Plus 1 trillion on the fast breaks. Way to go pounting out the most confounding aspect, the fact that we get the opportunity so often to have this normally fortuitous offensive advantage and we very, VERY often blow it.
I think West is better on the right side, agreed, but so is Hibbert (at least it seems). I don’t know if his struggles there are bad enough to warrant a ban, just a reduction. I’d say the same for Danny’s dribble drives. He sometimes makes those work with tough shots in the lane. What I’ve seen is that Danny, while rarely getting straight to the rim, is surprisingly effective (not efficient, but palatable we’ll say) moving side-to-side in the lane while shooting or just finding a little seem in the defense to sneak the ball towards the rim from 6-8 feet away. That’s cringe-worthy play that’s worked enough to not outright ban under the assumption that a.) it helps keep defenders slightly at bay when he’s on the perimeter, and b.) he can start knocking down 3’s in rhythm….which is maybe starting to come around.
If I recall Hibbert got that up and under thingy blocked by Cousins on Wednesday and blocked by the rim on Friday (or was that someone else?). But, it’s usually just a result of him getting pushed too far under the rim or not having any room to work or any lanes to pass out of the double. So, as long as it’s a last resort and not a habbit…I’ll just hope that’s the case.
Two things I’d like to see more of, one of which you mentioned.
1. We need WAY more cutting. This should even work ok against the zone if they get the ball moving around the perimeter and get the defensive formation shifting. When we do it, it’s almost always effective.
2. Hibbert and especially Hansbrough (and others) need to be prepared to catch tough passes from Paul George b/c he’s shown the ability to make some really great passes (not a ton, and still some bad ones). I know those two don’t have great hands to gather in traffic…in fact, they’re down right awful and I’ve said so in the past. But, if they are expecting it, they should be able to cash in on those opportunities rather than fumbling out of bounds or into the opponents hands.
peac.e
All good points...
…and you got me on the point of recommending bans. “Bans” were a bit of hyperbole on my part. I understand that they aren’t necessarily a realistic option, nor are they entirely necessary. As you mentioned, It’s a quantity thing. Granger should be aloowed to create on occasion, but when it’s a featured part of the offense, tremendous weaknesses are exposed. Same goes for PG and same goes for West on the left block.
I speculate that part of the problem is coaching. In a competitive sense, I like how Vogel is an unabashed optimist. He does a fine job of instilling the confidence in each player that they can beat anyone, regardless of any potential talent gap. I worry, though, that he might be applying the same optimist strategy on offense, despite the fact that an NBA offense might be something a little too nuanced for such gimmicks. For example, I could see Vogel telling Granger, PG, etc. that they can take their man off the dribble any time they want to as some sort of confidence ploy, regardless of whether they’re being effective with it or not.
Overall, I wish the coaches/players would be more honest with themselves as to what they’re strengths and weaknesses are offensively. Too often it feels as though they’re trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.
I agree.
I think Vogel could say, “I have faith in you. But let’s take a look at this game film.” Then they could see….THIS TEAM CAN’T WIN ONE-ON-ONE. It befuddles me that they go through great stretches where they are moving crisply and we are scoring, and then fall back into the trap of forced shots early in the clock and standing around watching people.
I know we don’t have many capable or willing passers on the bench, but they’ve got to find a way to reduce the length and frequency of those “Iverson” stretches.
peac.e
oops.
Also wanted to mention. I knew the ban stuff was hyperbole. What are you going to do, suspend Danny for a game b/c he tried to cross-over his defender lost control, had to pick up his dribble and then settle for a contested, 12 foot fade-away air ball?
But, what I really wanted to point out, was actually some potential defense of Vogel, in that we certainly have some new pieces and we haven’t had much practice time. Then again, 2 of our 3 best players after 14 games are the two new guys and our ugliest looking/feeling loss was probably the Sacto collapse which came after our longest stretch of idle time (not sure how many practices we got in).
peac.e
agree
very good points in your comment. relative to bans, i think HANSBROUGH has been banned from taking more than a prescribed number of shots/game. perhaps that ban can explain the shortage of touches he’s experienced recently or the seeming preference of some team mates to pass to a guarded AMUNDSON rather than an open TH; really hope i’m wrong.
TIDEofUNC
agree, 2
relative to HANSBROUGH, he should be totally grateful just to be able to touch the ball as his team mates have been engaged in effective games of “keep away” w/him in last few games. even if he f***s up occasionally, he is still a valuable resource on the offensive end. and, before anyone b**ches about his shooting %, other players have shot atrociously but continued to shoot. his lack of involvement in the offense most certainly has affected his confidence and will eventually come back to “haunt” the PACERS.
TIDEofUNC
He's been terrible much of this season.
Late last year he was knocking down those open elbow 20 footers with very respectable efficiency. Now he rarely takes them and almost never makes them. He needs that in his game. Not only would the points from those shots help a team struggling to score, but they would allow him to drive to the hoop. This is never pretty, but he’s fairly good at it.
As it stands now, his offense this season has come almost exclusively from some of his hideous slop around the rim lucking into the basket (though he’s able to hit just enough to almost make you think he practices those shots) and of course from the FT line. Now that’s where that 20 footer really comes into play. He’s not a terribly effective guy with his back to the basket. He doesn’t seem to have a ‘feel’ for that style of play. I’m happy to know he’s trying it, but it’s not working and this season is too important to experiment with individual improvement…save that for the off-season and a less condensed 2012-13. Opponents are starting to figure out when to press him into making a move and then backing off to not pick up the foul and let him take one of his terrible forced shots over someone with their hands up. He’s much better off facing up, taking the open 20 footer or putting the ball down for one power dribble and then making a move. In those situations only pretty good/disciplined defenders (or a double teaming guard) can shut him down completely. He usually either gets a decent shot going towards the rim or a goes to the line in those cases. But if people don’t respect that 20 footer, he’s done. If he could learn how to pass to a cutter in those situations we could get back to talking near starters minutes for him again (let West get some rest).
peac.e
must agree
although i don’t like your choice of adjectives, hideous eg., for a PACER player, i must agree that his play has been terribly disappointing this year, and i am the biggest defender/apologist for TYLER HANSBROUGH. he’s seemed so tentative and unsure this year of his offensive game. i tried to blame it on the specs but that excuse can go only so far. i am also concerned about his lack of rebounding prowess. TH’S aggressive play, his most important strength, imo, seems to be missing, also. i truly believe he’s experiencing a severe crisis of confidence now, and his future career may well depend on whether he can get that confidence back. if he can, hopefully his offensive and rebounding production will return.
TIDEofUNC
He needs to quite being UNC Tyler and start being the Pacer that was making opponents take notice last year.
I was never a fan of the Hansbrough pick, but mostly b/c back then I wanted us to draft for upside and not concern ourselves with immediate impact…b/c the Pacers were a bad team. It wasn’t that I didn’t think Tyler could be a decent pro, I just didn’t think a sub .500 team should be targeting safe picks. And, I felt that he was going to have to adjust alot to the NBA. He started to last season and it was refreshing that he was looking a little better than I thought he could be.
Now he’s trying to just put his head down and over power people and the guys he’s going up against are just better than him athletically and length wise. He needs to combine some smarts and discipline with his brute stength, aggresiveness, and insane motor. I use hideous b/c lets face it. Nothing Ty does is pretty. He’s a juggernaut and it’s only beautiful if you like chaos…as a Big Ten basketball fan…I kinda like it…but it’s ugly.
I can tell you why he’s not a better rebounder. It’s the same reason why he can almost never get easy buckets even when he’s open. He has bad hands (by NBA standards anyway). I don’t know if they are really small, or if he just has terrible eye hand coordination, but he can’t gather the ball quickly in traffic and decisively make a move with it. That goes for catching tough passes or pulling in boards in traffic…plus he’s a slow leaper and I don’t think he’s a guy who has one of those insane knacks for tracking the flight of the ball off the rim when the shot is in the air. But, he clears space, is extremely aggresive, and is subsuquently a decent rebounder considering his other short comings.
peac.e
great observations
cutter, you “hit it on the head” w/this comment. your observations are accurate and justified here; nothing w/which i could honestly disagree. the problems w/his hands have frustrated me, also. his habit of bringing the ball down after receiving a pass allows defenders time to get closer and decrease the probability of an uncontested shot. really wish he’d just shoot the ball immediately upon receiving a pass. i really want to see those aggressive moves to the basket again which have usually resulted in scores. w/his monumental work ethic, i’m sure he is/will do everything possible to increase his game and value to the team.
i’ve really enjoyed our discussion and look forward to doing it again. let’s hope TYLER gets it together, makes the necessary adjustments, and remains a valuable resource for the PACERS! take care, now!
TIDEofUNC
I think we need a Fanpost for this topic.
No one else will chime in on this thread b/c this will be off the front page by tomorrow night. There’s some folks on here that have a better grasp of basketball concept than I.
Many have said, and I still believe, that for the long term future of our team and the effectiveness of Hibbert as a ‘center’ piece of the Pacers we need a long athletic PF that can play above the rim. Though Hibberts new found body control (still kind of goofy looking) he now looks like a proffesional athlete…anyway, now that Hibbert is looking like a guy that is unquestionably a very good NBA center, I think we can settle for a “decent” PF, rather than needing a dominant PF to account for Hibberts short comings (though it’s only been a handful of games against weak front courts).
Anyway, this off-season there was much discussion on here about what to do with our cap-space and most agreed that PF was our biggest need. But some said we didn’t need an upgrade b/c we had Tyler. I was skepitcal, but admitted that his late season blossoming did slightly lessen the need for a protype PF. No one would say that now. Thankfully we have David West to ease the blow of Tyler’s reggresion a bit.
Anyway. I’m going to write up a fanpost in the next day or so regarding Hansbrough’s past, present and future with the Pacers. Check back and put in your shiney two penny’s b/c, as biased as some of your phrasing seems, your evaluation is pretty on point.
peac.e
I want to mention banning Tyler H. From ever trying to drive near the base line. There’s no room for him to make a play and he will for no good reason try to force things leading to stupid turnovers. Don’t care for the nonmovement when someone gets trapped. If Roy or Colllison gets trapped no one moves to help them they just give in to the inevitable turnover.
by HoosierGM on Jan 21, 2012 5:29 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Agree.
I think this goes to my cutting point. If your doubled, then someone should be open. There may not always be a passing lane to the cutter, so someone needs to flash to an open spot away from the basket in case the cutters can’t come free in a way that the trapped player can hit them.
I also notice, that sometimes it seems like when Tyler gets the ball on the block (usually the left block) they’ll clear out that whole side of the court. This might be one of those chicken/egg scenarios. I think no one feels compelled to go over to the left wing/baseline-corner b/c Hansbrough never, EVER passes the ball once he gets it. However, when he starts to back his man down, the double comes, he has to pick up his dribble, and then there’s no one there to pass to.
peac.e
don't ever use the words "never" or "ever"
cutter, i totally disagree w/your statement that TH NEVER passes the ball, a la ‘black hole’ analogy, when he collects it. admittedly, he has exhibited Kevin McHale-type tendencies in the past, he has given up the ball this year numerous times, even to the point of denying himself shots he would have taken and probably hit in the past. passing is the weakest aspect of his game, as it has been for many post players who dominated their games in college as the main offensive option. although the great KEVIN LOVE was a gifted passer in college, he was not the primary scorer as TYLER was at CAROLINA.
relative to your statement about his reluctance to pass when he gets doubled, perhaps his team mates should move toward him, as you criticized TH above for not doing, and provide outlets. one thing is certain: if his poor play doesn’t improve, his playing time will continue to diminish, and LARRY BIRD will certainly ship him somewhere else at season’s end, maybe even before then. moreover, there are not many teams in the nba that would be willing to take a chance on a player w/marginal upside and so many liabilities………………………………….
TIDEofUNC
Don't hold your breath.
Truly doubt Larrys shipping Tyler anywhere, anytime soon..
disagree
so you’re saying TYLER’S non-movement to the ball when ROY or DARREN are trapped causes stupid turnovers? there are 3 other players that can move to a trapped player, too, yet u single out TH? hopefully, you’re directing that “don’t care” to all players. btw, i do agree w/the complaint as i constantly scream at TH, and others, to move toward the ball in those situations.
relative to a ban on his drives near the baseline, i must disagree because recently he hasn’t touched the ball enough to even engage in a meaningful post move. it’s like his post moves and aggressive movements to the basket have disappeared this year. maybe, he “forces” too many moves because of frustration in not being sufficiently involved in the offense.
TIDEofUNC
I think you're combining two seperate points.
I think he was saying Tyler shouldn’t be working the baseline, my guess is that he’s saying he doesn’t have the touch to work around behind the rim or the handle to get himself free on the otherside. I tend to agree…but I stated my biggest concerns with Tyler above regarding his reggression and lack of that 20 footer that made him good late last season.
I think the non-movement he was saying is just as you pointed out. And as for his frustration with his involvement…he’s shoot poorly and NEVER passes. You gotta give to recieve my friend. It’s a two way street.
peac.e
...to give is to receive?
honestly…………………….it depends on who the player is; in TYLER’S case, it certainly is true. although DANNY GRANGER passes more than TH, his consistent selflessness w/the ball is not and will PROBABLY never be a paradigm of virtue.
ironically, TYLER’S been passing more the last few games yet gets fewer touches and less involvement in the offense. i am convinced that type of negative reinforcement will cause more problems for the team; probably not now, but in the future when the PACERS will possibly need his production when there are no other viable options.
TIDEofUNC
While we are on the topic...
of things you can order your 5th and 6th grade team to do/not do but can’t say to an NBA player:
Hansbrough, for every shot you take, you must make two passes. They don’t have to be assists, just a pass.
Print It.
He could stand to pass out of some of those no-win situations.
But, I want him to remain aggresive. We need his ugly scoring in the second unit….for two reasons.
1. The second unit tends to play at a reckles,s out of control pace and they completely lack the skill and athleticism to make that style work.
2. Tyler’s offense slows the game down and gets the team back under control. He gets to the line alot and is pretty efficient there.
2b. We just need those 10-12 points that he SHOULD be able to score. Of all the people on the team that are struggling.
I’m surprised to see that Tyler is the one that’s adjusting and taking a back seat….or it just appears that way b/c teamates are tired of passing it to him and never getting it back and watching him brick or turn the ball over….could be that too.
peac.e
begrudging agreement...........
if 2b is the case, coach should have that talk w/TH and demand more passing, less shooting. VOGEL possibly has already done that as evidenced by HANS’ diminished involvement in the offense. yet, it seems rather unfair to “punish” TYLER for playing the game in the manner for which he received accolades and kudos last year. also, unfair imo is to demand less shooting from TH on the 2nd team when DAHNTAY JONES and LANCE STEPHENSON, and also GEORGE HILL to an extent, eagerly take every opportunity to go solo, shoot first,and pass secondly. HANS must be involved in the offense, reflexively pass the ball when appropriate, and have the ‘green light’ to shoot when appropriate; “APPROPRIATE” being the key concept here.
TYLER’S role/fate will be ascertained by VOGEL, who must decide his relative importance to the team and organization. he will decide whether TH’S aggressive play, hustle, and determination are more/less important to the team’s success than an increased emphasis/demand on passing.
TIDEofUNC
Totally agree.
I think it’s a spiral of poor play on the 2nd unit. Ball hoggery. That’s my new word. There’s not a single person on the team, starter or backup, that is MJ. The first unit cuts and passes their way into some good looks. The 2nd unit needs to do the same. I fear that a lack of practice is going to prevent any real improvement if they can’t respond to coaching that tells them they need to move without the ball and pass to open players…which I can only hope they are getting.
Any criticism I have for Tyler is in no way excusing others on the team.
peac.e
BTW....
I never expect Hans to do much cutting. But, there should be people flashing open for him. There’s not. I don’t know if that’s b/c they aren’t being coached to do so or b/c Tyler doesn’t pass enough, so why move and get open? I don’t know.
peac.e
all salient points
as a CAROLINA grad, i closely watched TYLER for 4 years. from that experience, i am bewildered as to why he doesn’t move more w/o the ball. last year, his movements were a pleasure to watch. yet, toward the end of the season, those dashing and darting moves disappeared. i ascribed it to fatigue as last year was the first in which he’d played such a large # of games. yet, this year, those movements are not present. don’t know why, but if he could do more than just seeming to stand around, i know his effectiveness would increase.
TIDEofUNC
He lost faith...
…in that 20 footer. No point in moving around if the only shots you plan on taking are right in front of the rim.
peac.e
Pacers need to send Lance to the DLeague to get consistent playing time.
Tyler needs to step up his game. His been beyond terrible this season, like worse than DJ. I’ve never liked the Tyler pick (especially when Jrue Holiday was still there), but I can see how he can be an asset to the team. Not sure what’s going on with him. He’s healthy, so he shouldn’t be playing like he did last year.
It’s like once he drives and gets into the paint, he never pump fakes. He always expects contact so he just throws the ball at the basket instead TRYING to score.
Also, when he’s out on the baseline, you can see when he catches and shoots immediately, that he tends to make the shot. More often than not, he’ll fake like he’s going to drive 2 or 3 times before firing a shot. He misses though cause he’s not in a good rhythm.
He needs to work on driving to the basket and kicking the ball out to a wide open wing man. He adds that to his game, and he’ll be far better.
And it's now my sig
by Bronn on May 17, 2011 4:56 PM EDT
Do we not run the fast break drill in practice?
I know we haven’t had a lot of practice time, and when we do, it’s mostly devoted to half court D and offensive sets, but WTF? We have the ugliest fast break in the L, and for a team as great defensively as we are, we need to cash in on those steals. I personally am in favor of the One Man fast break, like Rondo or Parker or LeBron perform, but IDK if anybody can consistently deliver that. It’s something that Vogel needs to take a serious look at and maybe practice whenever our next break is. We can’t have both wings drift to the corner and no one ever cut to the basket. It’s gut-wrenching at times.
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
NBA Playoffs Content Module
Related FanPosts on Indy Cornrows
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
In Association With
Ball Don't Lie - NBA - Yahoo! Sport
- Jrue Holiday needs to shoot more for Sixers to win, according to Doug Collins
- Create-a-Caption: Jeff Pendergraph scares his Pacers teammates
- James Harden is a cake now
- Mike Miller loses shoe, plays two possessions without it, Pacers don’t score (VIDEO)
- Larry Bird calls his Indiana Pacers ‘soft’ following the team’s physical Game 5 loss to Miami
