Would We Take D.Williams
by rockguyinindy on Jan 17, 2012 9:35 AM EST
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PrintLooks like New Jersey may want to see what they can get for D.Will. It looks like we have as good as a chance than anybody BUT, we will have to offer Granger/Collinson and a 2012. They may want our young guys like Collison/George and Hill, but thats when we have to walk and keep on walkin as I no way would want to part with George/Hill/Hibbert or Tyler.
If we could get Deron then we will have that BIG point guard that we havent had since Mark Jackson. This would also put Paul at the 3 and probably bring Hill as a starting 2 leaving our back ups a little thin with Lance and D.Jones. We might even have to go back to the Mad Ants and get that Lazere guy to play back up to Paul. Unless we can find a serviceable small forward to play back up.
I know and understand this takes away from our depth and chemistry if NJ was to take such a trade offer with us. But OMG! Can you imagine the overwhelming of talent we would have?!!? Maybe its just pie in the sky or Tuesday morning boredom, but a heck-of-a-thought with D.Williams, G.Hill, P.George, D.West, Big Roy with back ups being Lance, D.Jones, Tyler, Foster with an addition of a small forward back up.
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Elephant in the room is obviously...
WOULD HE SIGN HERE NEXT YEAR?!?!?!? Answer is either “no,” or “I don’t know,” and neither of those answers is good enough for me to give up Granger and a 2012 pick. We’d basically be in the same boat NJN is in right now, only hopefully not quite as bad long-term (as we’d give up fewer young talents, draft picks than they did) but with potentially much less return (only half of an already shortened season).
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Your probably right
But maybe since this is his really 1st winning team with more talent than he had in Utah and NJ he would resign. BUT, it would most likely cancel any plans on signing other good players b/c of his fat contract.
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by rockguyinindy on Jan 17, 2012 9:49 AM EST up reply actions
I disagree that we have more talent than his Utah team
Maybe close to the same, now with West and Hill, but a better situation in a more winnable conference…I guess. Miami and Chicago are still probably both better than anything the West has this year. The problem in Utah was a either a personal issue between he and Sloan or a realization that, even without Sloan, they couldn’t guarantee Williams would stay put, so they hedged their bets and, in the long run, made a smart decision to fleece some deep pocketed owner into handing them rebuilding pieces.
I just don’t see it being any different for Williams here. He gets here, realizes the talent is fine, but the chance to win is not any greater, and either feuds (like he did with Sloan, not likely because Vogel is probably more of a pushover than Sloan was), walks, or both. I think he sees himself as a top 5 player who can make his own franchise somewhere like LeBron and Carmelo did. Now, beggars can’t be choosers, and there may not be some rich, big market team tailor-made to offer him what he’s looking for as was the case with those two, and to a lesser degree, CP3, but there will be options. I think he and Dwight Howard end up pairing up to go to Houston or something (a team that could totally afford both of them if they find a way to shed Luis Scola or Kevin Martin’s contracts…that’s what they were trying to set up for prior to the season btw). The Rockets have picks, trade assets (Lowry’s one of the most reasonable second tier-quality contracts in the league) and big market appeal (fourth biggest city in the US I believe).
The long and short of it is that if we want Williams, the only way it makes sense if if we set ourselves up with a situation where we can pull in Dwight Howard too, and get them to commit to long-termming early. Otherwise it’s pointless. And all of that’s going to take gutting this team of all of its talent and reasonable contracts. And even then it’s not realistic.
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Also...
He’s proven he’s a premadonna, which fans won’t tolerate here. – since, in most people’s minds around Indy, the Pacers are still the overpaid athlete thugs from 2004.
There’s also the fact that bringing in Williams would necessitate a trade for Collison, which would completely ruin the team’s chemistry (esp. in David West’s case). And I’m positive that the Pacers would have to overpay to get Williams.
Eh
If you’re getting Williams I think appeasing David West is the last thing you’re worried about. There are several problems with acquiring him, but none of them have to do with chemistry in my mind. I think chemistry is overrated in today’s NBA. Give me Deron Williams and another legit star and I’ll make my own chemistry. That said, I’m not for this approach given what we can probably do, for much cheaper, with what we already have.
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a proven primadonna?
where are you getting this? when has deron ever pouted his way out of a team or ruined a team because of his attitude? don’t bring up the jazz, because if the jazz were wanting to take deron over jerry sloan, they would have kept deron instead of getting rid of both sloan and him in the span of a week.
and i completely fail to see how (in my eyes) the best pure point guard in the league is going to ruin chemistry. deron is 10x the point guard that DC is right now.
Harper's on Miller, McKey, gets in to Miller for the win and...
CHIEF
by wonillionaire on Jan 17, 2012 3:54 PM EST up reply actions
The Jazz
Sorry, you don’t feud with your coach.
Especially if his name is Jerry Sloan
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by rockguyinindy on Jan 18, 2012 10:48 AM EST up reply actions
I'm not going to say it that bluntly....
…but, it doesn’t work in D-Will’s favor that he made a HOF coach decide he was too old to deal with punks….that’s most of what an NBA coach’s job is.
peac.e
That speaks for itself
Williams also looks like he’s just phoning games in this season. The guy has clearly given up on the Nets, because they aren’t able to stack their team like he thought they’d be able to.
I like this idea much better than the Monta Ellis nonsense, but I would still be hesitant to sacrifice our depth to do this, especially this year. Paul George will struggle at the 3 spot with his lack of strength compared to Danny. That transition will probably need to happen in a couple years, but I say we ride our ridiculously long, athletic, and deep team as far as it can go this year. I can honestly see this team in the Eastern Conference Finals as long as they don’t have to go through Miami to get there.
Almost a certainty they would have to go through Miami...or Chicago though, right?
I think this team is either a major overhaul, or some miraculous development from George and Hibbert away from waltzing into the conference finals. But okay, I’m good with trying with what we have rather than sacrificing depth and draft picks to win now.
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What it would take
Expanding on my thought earlier about what it would take to bring in Williams (and Dwight Howard)
Probably looking at Collison, Granger and a draft pick for Williams.
Probably two picks (so we’re out to like 2015 now), George, Hibbert and the willingness to absorb Hedo Turkoglu for Howard. Then we’d have to stock our team, for the rest of the year, with crap loads of guys you’ve never heard of, all for the chance to start Williams, Hill, Turkoglu, West and Howard. Then we’d be potentially screwed in the short term if they walked after the season, and DEFINITELY screwed in the long-term with Turkoglu. Just too many issues and potential problems, all having to do with money and the uncertainty of this team sticking together. Also it would suck to lose Paul George in any deal, and he’d have to be involved to get both stars.
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Man...
Forget that. Thats all Booooo!!! I’ll take my team like it is now. Wish we could sign Wilson Chandler from China…You know he would be the man to rotate around Paul and Danny…Hands Down.
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by rockguyinindy on Jan 17, 2012 12:47 PM EST up reply actions
Wilson Chandler
Is a much better option than blowing up the team for one guy that will walk at season’s end.
Chandler could be the missing piece for this year if they can sign him.
I've Mentioned
W.Chandler 23x on here and it looks like you and me are the only ones who thinks he will be a good option. The guy can flat out play the 2, the 3 and some at the 4 if nec. He can play “D” and hit his shots. Damn, I wish there was a way to get him from China now instead of waiting til March or end of Feb…Maybe Larry is waiting on that, who knows.
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by rockguyinindy on Jan 17, 2012 1:14 PM EST up reply actions
Chandler was on my list last year when I did a series on potential free agents
He has his positives. Unfortunately it was pre-lockout so this whole China buyout fiasco hadn’t happened yet, and a lot of my analysis was rendered moot. It was also pre-David West. Chandler was a part-time PF last year (but almost exclusively played 3…zero 2) and our biggest need was at the 4.
Here’s my take last spring:
Strengths: Probably the remaining free agent with the most potential. Chandler can score in a variety of ways. Athletic and versatile as a wing scorer, and a pretty efficient shooter. Was the Knicks’ best player at the start of the season. Covers up his size limitations with his athleticism. Is an above average weakside shot blocker with quick hands and a nose for the basketball. Can adequately defend 3 or 4 positions. Another mid-west guy with something to prove. Will probably be most successful in a system that allows him to run, and rotate between the wing and post positions.
Weaknesses: A true tweener. Hasn’t spent much time at PF (Danilo Gallinari was the PF with New York, while Chandler played primarily on the wing). With his small forward build can he handle the rigors of banging with true power forwards? A good rebounder from the wing, but probably not good enough from the power forward spot to justify the pay, at least not with Indiana (a team that desperately needs a better rebounder at the starting 4 spot). For all his talent and athleticism he doesn’t get to the line enough to be a “closer.” Takes plays off and isn’t as aggressive as he should be. Hasn’t shown up in the playoffs. Is injury prone…
Here’s the link: http://www.indycornrows.com/2011/4/28/2138715/free-agency-part-2-power-forward
So yeah, I think he works to a degree. I just don’t see how he’d fit here as a permanent backup, and I don’t think he’s good enough at 4 to to replace West in two years, nor do I think he’s healthy enough (or good enough for that matter) to eventually replace Granger, and frankly I don’t think he’ll be cheap enough or willing to come off the bench forever.
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What???
No way. We are not stupid like NY. First of all, I don’t think that Howard would stay here. As much as he says he wants to win…he wants to keep building his image. Which is odd b/c I think he’s maybe the most marketable player in the league right now…at least for a few more weeks of Lebron’s “decision” cooling off in the mind/hearts of fans. I don’t know what he’ll really gain going to a big city and not winning.
Anyway….I got WAY off target. That’s way too much to pay a team for a player that may be worth near that much talent-wise, but come on. They don’t have the kind of leverage to force that. Let someone else give up the needed talent/depth to win for a cornerstone with no other stones. We couldn’t win with Howard and a bunch of scrubs….as proven by Orlando.
peac.e
Again, didn't say we should
Just that’s probably what it would take, and even then it wouldn’t be realistic. Only way either of them comes here and agrees to stay is if the other one does. And even that’s far-fetched.
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is trading guys from our 9-3 team all we’re going to talk about this season?
"He's like Darth Vader." - Frank Vogel on Larry Bird
by IndyPacers on Jan 17, 2012 3:44 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Agree with Indypacers
Why do we feel we need to make a move. WE ARE 9-3!! there is no need to make any changes……. yet. If Roy declares for free agency which it seems like he will then i say we trade him to the Nets for Deron WIlliams because then we will be getting something instead of nothing. A trade like WIlliams, Lopez for Hibbert, Collision and a pick might work out but i dont know if the nets would agreee.
All in all i dont think we really need to be making trades right now.
Deron also has declared for free agency, aka not yet signed an extension
So it’d be the same problem, except that Williams would be much harder to keep, having less ties to Indiana and being more coveted around the league. Plus, the Pacers would have to shell out much more money to keep him.
I think Hibbert is hoping for a Marc Gasol type of situation, where a team like Washington offers him stupid money, and he uses that as leverage to get a better deal from the Pacers. As much as I’d like the team to keep their great cap situation, this is a business.
But I agree that we seem awfully eager to try to break up this team that’s winning 75% of its games
Noooo
No way in F**k am I all in for trading our guys. This was simply a what if scenario especially since i been recently converted to our smash mouth-grind type of playing. But, we have won all our games against suck-ass teams. Would be nice to see another scorer to help out against the better teams.
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I'd say two wins vs. Boston (one on the road) and a home shellacking of ATL are pretty convincing
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while i believe that the pacers have a lot of room for improvement,
i believe we should add to our talent and not trade talents. keep this unit together and add more. we will be better that way.
while other teams may have their big three,
we will have our medium 8 or 9
by denggoy7 on Jan 17, 2012 6:48 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Yes indeedy.
3 superstars trying to play 40+ mins every game of a 7 game series and do everything
VS
Genuine 8 or 9 deep rotation with 7 guys who can fill it up on any given night.
I’ll take No.2 please.
How would you like your order?
Well done, medium rare or bloody?
I like our team.
And can’t see any obvious situations where I’d give up any of our core guys.
But, 3 superstars and some scrubs trumps an 8 or 9 man rotation of mediocore players.
The remaining 6 or 7 players in Miami’s rotatoin aren’t enough worse than anyone in our rotation to allow our “depth” to trump superstars.
At least not with some luck.
But, I’m buying into the team mentality…so I’m onboard for now. But, I’m not going to act like we can win a championship.
peac.e
No way
Rolling the dice on a couple of top five players, sounds good, but I would like a team. I think investing in Hill/Hibbert/George for the future is the way to go. Lance and Dc can both get better——finding a flat out shooter to slide into the two spot, or an AI type to score from the point when we need a pick me up and another $/5, primarly a 5 who can spell big Roy when Foster is unavailable would help—-and we still have two slots open! I think we are drawing to a winning hand, lets not throw away the wrong cards.
Well
Danny, DC, and a first a Deron? If he agreed to a 3-4 year extension then i’d do that. But i wouldnt wanna give Hibby, George, and another first(or 2) for Howard, and maybe Turk, also. That’s a little much. I think Deron and West running the P&R, with Hibbert in the post, and George spotting up and sometimes making those uber-athletic plays, would look very good, and we’d still play great defense. Just my 2 cents.
D willNOTiams
I’d much rather have Roy than D williams or Howard. Those superstars egos just won’t mesh with Indiana and it’s style and we would have to give up too much. I hope we extend Roy’s contract(hopefully for not an insane amount) and just add a scorer next year on the cheap(Mayo or draft pick perhaps). I think Roy’s agent is just playing a little hardball but cooler heads will prevail in the end.
Whoa-Whoa-Hold Up
How did Howard and Turkelu get in MY post?? Just D.Williams as a scenario..thats all man. We should NEVER let Hibbert/Hill/George go anywhere. I betch lunch Deron would resign a 3-4 yr deal if he sees he got some talent around him..West/Hibbert/George/Hill/Tyler maybe..JUST Maybe get W.Chandler as well. Yeah, its only dreamin.
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My fault
I introduced Howard as the only way Williams would sign long-term with us (and I believe this to be true) and I proposed the only way the Magic would let Howard go without taking back a star was for us to send draft picks AND be willing to take back Turkoglu. I totally agree that it’s not worth it, but somehow people think I’m advocating for it. Strange. Anyway, maybe I’m being pessimistic, but I just don’t see how your core that you mentioned convinces Williams to stay here. He’s way too good to languish as the one true star on a middle-of-the pack playoff team in the same conference as D-Rose and LeBron, unless he just couldn’t help it. I think there’s a possibility he settles for the Pacers if no other options present themselves, but that’s exactly the situation I don’t want…to trade for him now and sit around and wait while he fields other offers. Seems highly unrealistic that he would “agree” to a long-term if we sent DC/DG/1st rounder for him, then we’d be f*cked. That’s what I said way up at the top.
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PERSONALLY
I would prefer to trade one (not both) of our draft picks before even considering breaking up this team. Plus with our CAP, come the trade deadline, we may be able to just absorb someones contract and not have to give up anything in return.
At least this season
there is no question of tanking to from pick 10 up to 7 or whatever. Kinda pointless tank yourself up to pick 15 :D
Anyone who knows me....
….knows I’m a HUGE fan of building through the draft. And I’ve been pining for years to get a top draft pick. And this draft is pretty loaded throughout the lotto picks (1-14) and a little bit beyond…but the very bottom 5 or so of the 1st round and top of the 2nd actually look thinner than many of the past years.
Anyway, that’s neither here nor there. I’m going to root for this team to win every game I watch. I always did in the past, but I was secretly just as happy they were losing b/c I knew they were no good and could only get better (significantly better) through the draft. Well, not this year. I will be pretty upset when we don’t win.
Though, when it’s all said and done, I think I would be happiest if we finished with the 6th seed. That will “probably” provide the highest possible draft pick without facing CHI or MIA in the 1st round. I think if ATL is 100% then ATL, PHI, and ORL (w/ Howard) are all tough opponents, but beatable so I have little preference and don’t know if an extra home game in the 1st round is financially better than getting a few more choices of mid-level talent infussion. Keep in mind, rookies will probably be the best most affordable players we can acquire if we pay the money to keep this core together.
peac.e
just short of 50% of pick 17+ draft picks since the merger make no contribution in the NBA
just want to get htat out there.blame that on whatever you want, poor scouting, execs trying to hit a diamond in the rough instead of just taking the surefire roleplayer, giving 20 something idiots a couple million dollars, whatever, it’s true. draft picks outside of about the top 8 or so are highly, HIGHLY, overrated.
"He's like Darth Vader." - Frank Vogel on Larry Bird
What the hell does that have to do with anything.
That stengthens my argument even more. I bet 50% of free agents are equally as disapointing per dollar.
So if the best players are taken at the top of the draft and many of the mid-round picks falter, how would having more picks hurt?
I like the team we have now, and I never thought Bird would ever do anything that even slightly lowered our chance of winning the very next game we play…so, I’m fairly impressed with the way we’ve built our team given Bird’s refusal to really rebuild.
But show me a team that built anything without drafting well with atleast a couple top 10 picks (drafted or traded) with in a few years of each other.
Yes there’s plenty of teams that have also drafted high several years in a row, but there are basically NO teams that have been to a title game without players they drafted or acquired with some top picks.
peac.e
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