Pacers rant kind of
Hello all. I'm recently new here, and I've been posting some here and there. I wanted to introduce myself. I am The_Dawson, and I have been a Pacers fan for 17 years. It was a perfect match from the start. I love this team, and have watched them go through awesome times, and the crappy times. The Finals to missing the playoffs for 4 straight. I thought when Reggie left, he left with out team still intact. Things didn't turn out so well. Things dwindled. We had horrible teams, and were in the worst spot in the lottery (14th) and losing, badly. Seeing this team now, and what it's become. It's almost unreal. This team is can be so good, beyond what we've seen so far. It's ridiculous. And something I've noticed tonight, looking at the roster. This team is reminding me of our finals team. Not comparing players by any means, but more so the style of play, the type of players we have, and most importantly, we're young. We have guys that somewhat mirror guys from those wonderful days of old.
Hansbrough reminds me a lot of Dale Davis, with his intensity and toughness, but with the ability to score.
West is like Antonio Davis, can score the ball well, but can play defense too, as well as rebounds. All around pro just like A. Davis
This is where it gets hinky. We have a Pg in DC that is NOT Mark Jackson. However, I believe I'm not alone with the thought that he is our best overall Pg since #13. I discount Tinsley because of what he became, although he is talented.
Paul George. Again, NOT Reggie Miller. But same as above, he's our best starting option since. He can get to the rack, and create way more than Reggie, although Reggie could shake and bake in his day. PG has recently shown his improving 3-point range as of late.
Danny Granger. The day we drafted him, I was glad we got him. I'll admit, I wanted Sean May first. Wow, glad we didn't. He stands out, because we haven't really had a guy like Granger before. Not at his scoring ability. In my opinion, he's always been kinda like a poor man's Scottie Pippen. He has the ability to be that good, but he's not there. I'm not sure if he ever will either, but I always felt his game was similar. BIg wings, can stretch the floor, can also take it to rim. Pippen was a better defender though. Way better.
Hibbert is and obvious comparison. He's 7'2. He's our next generation Rik Smits. Games are a little different yes, but there are similarities. Both hook shooters, both can hit the "jumper". Which is funny, because Smits couldn't jump, and Hibbert seems to not when he shoots that j. I think Hibbert may be a better defender than Smits. Or maybe he could be.
Call me crazy, but it sounds like we have a familiar (at least to me) formula than we've had in the past. The bench gets a lot of credit as well, but this is getting long. Just seems to me, we have a storm brewing in Indy. It's finally happening, and the Pacers are back. Ok I'm done. GO PACERS!
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Here are some differences:
Dale Davis had one move the Tomahawk Jam, and thats all he needed.
Tyler can shoot, and has the undervalued ability to make tough shots in the Post.
Dale Davis was one of the worst foul shooters of all time.
Tyler is a good foul shooter.
Dale Davis was scary in the, “Get out of my face, or I’ll beat your ASS,” kind of way.
Tyler is scary in the, “Get out of my face, or I’ll chop you up, put you in storage bags in my fridge, feed your brains to my dog, and I’ll eat the rest,” kind of way.
Dale Davis never smiled.
Tyler obviously is funny.
Dale Davis played in the NBA Finals.
Tyler has played in the 1st round of the playoffs.
Dale Davis is Darth Vador BLACK.
Tyler is PASTY WHITE.
Dale Davis had Machismo with the ladies.
Tyler is a Ted Bundy look alike, and couldn’t get a chick if he had a hundred dollar bill stuck in his zipper.
Dale Davis played at Clemson, where all the black kids go.
Tyler played at North Carolina, where all the white kids go.
Both where the 13th pick of thier respected drafts, and both are Pacers.
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Dude Tyler never smiles
I agree on the comparison being a bad one, but Tyler is probably the most deadpan, socially awkward person on the team (and maybe the league).
"You're hitting the wrong person. Don't you know you're hitting Ron Artest?"
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I didn't say he smiled,
but do you think you would ever see DD wear stupid glasses and a headband to practice. He was all business. Tyler has a good sense of humor. . . obviously.
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Yeah, I get it
Dale did participate in the team-wide shave your head policy though, for what that’s worth. But it wasn’t nearly as funny/horrifying as when Rik Smits shaved his head. Interesting side note…did you know Dale Davis was a smoker? I’ve heard there are lots of pro athletes who smoke cigarettes (and we know there are lots who smoke that other stuff)…I’m pretty sure Larry Bird did his entire career. But it just shocks me. Dale didn’t seem like a smoker, so when I found out I was surprised.
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Are U Serious????
Dale Davis smoked cigs…..and other players as well???
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by rockguyinindy on Jan 12, 2012 8:47 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah, Bird still does, to my knowledge
Back in the day, like before Bird’s time, pretty much everyone did because it was a foregone conclusion prior to the 1960s that tobacco smoke didn’t hurt you. So I could totally see Bobby Leonard and all those guys from his era lighting up at halftime. But Dale never struck me as a smoker with how well-conditioned he seemed. Shocked me as well.
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WOW!!
***Forever Grunge...Man!***
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by rockguyinindy on Jan 12, 2012 9:38 AM EST up reply actions
On Bird smoking - and it's obvious the years haven't been kind just by looking at him.
by FortWayneKarl on Jan 12, 2012 11:31 AM EST up reply actions
You want to see unkind
Look at your facebook page Karl. . .
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I think I read somewhere that Dale was the funniest guy on the team
always cracking jokes in the locker room or something like that. Didn’t show at all on the court though.
For some reason I’m not surprised that he smoked cigs, although I had him pegged at being more into a wackier type of tobacco. (As apparently 80% of the league was in those times, according to Charles Oakley)
Well..
I think we’re missing out on some key components from that era. I don’t get the comparisons people make to that team at all.
- Tyler Hansbrough cannot rebound or defend like Dale Davis. He is a much better offensive player, but that’s it. Davis’s range extended to about 10 feet max, while Hans can knock down the 20 footer with consistency and at least he thinks he can take people off the dribble. Davis would never try. But the importance of the athleticism/strength/defensive/rebounding gap between Hansbrough and Davis can’t be overstated, especially with how good/consistent of an outside shooter Smits was (I’ll get to this later).
- David West is NOT Antonio Davis. Their games aren’t similar at all. Antonio was a seamless Dale Davis replacement off the bench. His jumper was significantly better, and his range a few feet longer, but that wasn’t hard to do given Dale’s offensive irrelevance. West is good, and he’s a helluva lot more intense than I thought he’d be. He’s more assertive than I ever imagined, and seems to be looking more and more mobile by the day. He’s infinitely a more polished offensive player than Antonio ever was. But Antonio was very strong and very athletic. Big difference between “surprisingly mobile” and “very athletic.” But that doesn’t begin to describe the biggest hole to this comparison, which is that we rely on West to start and while we never had to rely on Antonio to do so. The Davis/Davis combo provided the Pacers with a duo of near-the-rim athletic defenders. The Hans/West combo does not. We don’t have that. It’s a problem at times, and will continue to be.
- I agree with you that Paul George is very good, but I’m not ready to call him “our best starting option since Reggie Miller.” I believe in him, and I sincerely think he will be our best two-guard since Reggie. But the shooting revelation he’s experiencing this year is somewhat mitigated by the fact that he refuses to be consistently assertive on offense. This can probably be somewhat attributed to his age and somewhat a product of Danny Granger being our most ball dominant player (and essentially playing the same position). That clutch scorer we all wanted in the off-season to come off the bench? We wouldn’t have needed one if George was more confident. And as much as it pains me to say it, and as much as I hated his shot selection, Stephen Jackson was that guy. Just because he left us with a bad taste in our mouths, it doesn’t mean he wasn’t a better overall player during his time here than George is RIGHT NOW. This is a complicated issue because I know people are going to get hyper-sensitive and light me up over it, but I just want to make it clear that I like George a great deal better, and I see something very special in him. But Jackson’s scoring (and underrated defense) was what we complain about not having these days.
- Eh, I never got the Scottie Pippen references. I think a lot of people make that comparison simply to excuse Danny for not being a star. They say “he’s more of a Scottie Pippen,” not really comparing their games but comparing them as secondary options, never capable of carrying a championship contender by themselves. But you said it, Pippen was a MUCH better defender than Danny (though Danny has surprised me with his defense this year). And Danny is a much better three point shooter.
- I like the Smits and Hibbert comparison because they were both unique in different ways. But Smits was a deadlier and more consistent offensive threat. He knew what his job was, which was to get opposing bigs to plod out to 20 feet where he would knock down jumpers. Hibbert’s role still seems a little ambiguous, and I’m now convinced he’ll never have a jumper even near Smits-level.
I like the enthusiasm over this year’s group, I do. And I’m on board with them maybe upsetting a 3 or 4 seed in the first round of the playoffs. But some of the things that our Reggie era team had are simply not here these days (tough, athletic interior defenders, crunch time scorers and a smart point guard with eyes in the back of his head) and I think people forget that when they make that comparison. They also forget the team chemistry, veteran presence and coaching differences between these two teams.
"You're hitting the wrong person. Don't you know you're hitting Ron Artest?"
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Excellent analysis
Took the words out of my fingers
Oh..
And one of the reasons Pippen was so good was that he was unselfish and a great passer. Helps that he played with the greatest player of all time. But my question is if Danny played with Jordan, would he even pass to him? I’d like to think so, but we’ll never know how Danny would react to playing with great offensive players because while he’s here it looks like he’ll always be (or think he’ll be) our #1 offensive option.
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Hey did you notice that he didn't compare one person to Jalen Rose. . .
That is because Rose is a nobody in Pacer world and not a Big Three
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
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Nor did he compare anyone to...
Chris Mullins Mullin
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Could always compare Paul George with Jalen...
Though, honestly, George may be developing more like Granger than anyone else that I can remember being on the team (I’m not that old, so I don’t know about before 1995 more or less). Carve a niche defensively his first year, expand game (especially the 3pt shot) the next year, and likely have a breakthrough in his 3rd year.
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by infinityzero.systemerror on Jan 12, 2012 8:51 AM EST up reply actions
He seems more fluid and athletic than Granger
But yeah, I can see that. Neither of them handle the ball/pass like Rose. He was in our point guard rotation. George really reminds me of a poor man’s Kevin Durant. I don’t mean to say he’s close to the same caliber, just the way he moves, and the skill-set. He’s rangy and he can guard several positions and play on the perimeter. He may be stronger than Durant, if not just as athletic. But the killer instinct, offensive freakishness and post repertoire/rebounding that Durant developed in college will unfortunately never be there for George.
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I can see the Durant comparison.
I’ve considered it myself at times. I don’t necessarily think that he can’t develop some of those abilities you don’t believe he can have, it seems.
"A champion is someone who gets up when he can't."
- Jack Dempsey
by infinityzero.systemerror on Jan 12, 2012 9:24 AM EST up reply actions
Sometimes George makes me think of McKey
The lockdown defense thing is there. PG is much more athletic, and has a better offensive repetoire (even right now). McKey was a better passer though.
Lance makes the best Jalen Rose comparison
Mark vs DC
Mark Jackson was slow
DC is fast
Mark was the floor general
DC is on the floor
Mark Jackson can post any point guard in the league up
DC can post Mugsy Bogues up. . . Mabey
Mark Jackson is one of the greatest to ever throw a pass
DC is getting there
Mark Jackson had swagger and a will to win
DC is getting there
Mark Jackson had the Head Bobble
DC has the High Five?
Ron Harper couldn’t defend Mark Jackson
Ron Harper would shut down DC
Mark Jackson played in the NBA Finals
DC played in the 1st Rd
Mark Jackson was Rookie of the Year
DC had a good Rookie Year
Mark Jackson was the 18th pick
DC was the 21st pick
Mark Jackson was a movie star in the film Eddie
DC was a extra in Big Momma’s House 2
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I appreciate the conversation
That was going, and I don’t mind criticism at all. In no way, and I stated this in the post, am I comparing this team to ANY of those guys. And yes, I left out Mullin and Rose and guys like that mainly because they came off of the bench because of who they were behind. I know certain matchups had Chris and Jalen starting. That’s why our bench is like then too. Because we have options off the bench and we’ll only get better. I no way think that these two teams are the same, and the games of players I mentioned are in fact different. I know there are huge differences. I just thought there were a few noticeable similarities, and wanted to shed light on them. And no, Clemson doesn’t just have black kids, and North Carolina doesn’t have just white kids lol. Again, thanks for all the feedback.
Jalen Rose started for two whole years...Mullin for one
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Yeah
Burt Mullin started for a whole Hall of Fame Career . . . Jalen was way down the bench many years.
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I'm not arguing that
I was just correcting him when he said Mullin and Rose came off the bench only.
"You're hitting the wrong person. Don't you know you're hitting Ron Artest?"
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Already done it...already won
"You're hitting the wrong person. Don't you know you're hitting Ron Artest?"
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Correcting who?
I hope it’s not me, cause I didn’t say they came off the bench only.
Sigh...
I left out Mullin and Rose and guys like that mainly because they came off of the bench because of who they were behind. I know certain matchups had Chris and Jalen starting.
Emphasis mine. They didn’t just play matchups. They were regular starters. In fact Rose replaced Mullin in the starting lineup and proceeded to start for us for two years until he was traded in a package that brought our new starting SF (Ron Artest) from Chicago.
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Right
I know, it was lack of wording on my part. I know they logged starters minutes. But good point though. I don’t want to make either of them sound like bench scrubs. Clearly not. However, I was simply stating that it seemed they were better suited coming off of the bench. Jalen more so Chris though.
You do realize Jalen Rose led our team in scoring for two years in a row, right?
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Not that you would
As daledavis (the fake one with no space between his name) correctly pointed out in an epically-flawed argument he made a few weeks ago, Pacers fans typically block out Jalen’s career here because he was a douche bag.
"You're hitting the wrong person. Don't you know you're hitting Ron Artest?"
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My argument was spot-on, completly right, and Super-Genious!
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quick synopsis
Hansbrough is a better offensive Dale Davis the the same rebounding prowess. He isn’t there yet with his defense and shot-blocking like Dale Davis was in his career. Dale Davis never smiled, but Hansbrough has this wide-eyed and open-mouthed look that says one of two things 1) I’m going to eat you or 2) I’m going to dismember your body if you get in my way
Paul George reminds me of a combination of a more athletic Derrick McKey and a Jalen Rose with a less of a scorer’s mentality. He has the most athleticism along with Lance Stephenson and CAN BE a future all-star.
Hibbert is a black Rik Smits clone. He needs to stop ending up on the floor so often, but he’s starting to play tougher and has always rebounded and blocked shots better than Rik Smits.
David West and Antonio Davis are spot on I think .. I believe Antonio rebounded better, but I think West scores better and has a better basketball IQ as well as leadership qualities. I call West “Grumpy Old Man Strength.” Everytime he thows someone I think of the movie “Grumpy Old Men” :).
Collison reminds me of Travis Best … Sorta why I wish we’d trade him for a top PG, but that’s just my opinion. Both were good shooters and quick as all hell, but had some bonehead plays especially in crunch time.
Jeff Foster reminds me of … oh yeah he’s old and was on a lot of those teams :)… so himself … Jeff Foster and David West = Walter Matheau and Jack Lemon
Lance Stephenson reminds me of a more athletic and explosive Jalen Rose. He needs to continue to mature, but a 6’5’’ PG or a 225 lbs SG that is strong are always good things. He needs to learn better passing and defense but what young players dont’?
Granger is a very very poor man’s version of Scottie Pippen and Reggie Miller .. .When he is on his jumper is one of the best in the league, and with not having to score 25 a night he can have as good of defense as Pippen. He is also an under-rated passer when he puts his mind to it.
George Hill reminds me of a more athletic Mark Jackson. He doesn’t pass as well, but he’s a better shooter, better on defense, and can be just as good of a floor general. If he puts in a “tear drop” chaos might ensue :).
Dahntay Jones is a slasher version of Byron Scott. He doesn’t shoot as well that is obvious, but he can drive to the hole effectively, plays great defense most of the time, and guides the 2nd unit a lot of the time. If he can just get him to not complain about every foul he is called for and whine about everything, it would be a better game :).
Smits vs Hibbert?
It took Smits about 6 seasons to be consistently good; he was god-awful his first couple. Hibbert is so much farther along relative to Smits at the same point in his career. Hibbert is less of a classic back-to-the-basket offensive threat than Smits was (in this facet of his game, Smits was great), but Hibbert’s athleticism makes him more of a complete threat. The season’s early, but Hibbert seems to have improved, and I suspect he will surpass Smits by the time his career is over. Just so you know, I was a huge Rik Smits fan back in the day.
by taipei_coltsfan on Jan 12, 2012 8:20 PM EST reply actions
What?
Smits was a full-time starter and double-digit scorer EVERY NBA season he had. He averaged 15.5 ppg, 6.2 rpg and shot 53% from the floor his second season. Hibbert averaged 11.7, 5.7 and shot 50% his second year. If HIbbert ever develops into the offensive player Smits was it’s a miracle. Hibbert has some stuff on Rik, including his bulk and a slight athleticism nod (and we’ll excuse his somewhat slower development on the fact he started playing basketball later). But saying he’s developed faster than Smits is patently false. Smits was NBA ready and better than Hibbert has become so far almost the minute he stepped on an American basketball court.
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wow, Luke is right
I had to look them up, but Smits posted pretty good stats from the start. That’s funny because until ‘94 I remember a lot of Pacers fans talking about him the same way we’ve talked about Brandon Rush these last few years.
It's like the Jalen Rose perception is reality fallacy that many fans suffer from
Just like people think the Packers defense is horrible and is going to get thrashed by NY because it gave up an historic amount of yards, forgetting that yards allowed almost never matters (it’s points allowed).
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*
Points allowed, by the way, is a category in which the Packers hold an advantage, btw (they gave up 3 ppg less than NY, if I’m not mistaken…I’m relying on stats I heard on the radio during the very early morning hours today, so there’s a chance I’m wrong). Anyway, people believe stuff, and it gets burned into their memory, because they invest so much time building their own perceptions around things that aren’t true that when facts are examined, it’s impossible to decipher the real (Jalen Rose was a highly-involved, highly-effective Pacer as a starter and a key component to a championship run, and Smits was relatively consistent throughout his career from start to finish) from the fake (both of those guys sucked, or at least Smits sucked for several years). Everyone is guilty of it. I think Jared Sullinger is still fat just because I hate him.
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It got "Burned" into their memory because IT'S TRUE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
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What?
"You're hitting the wrong person. Don't you know you're hitting Ron Artest?"
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I told my mom about this and she said I'm right and your wrong!
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Ahhh...
You missed the perfect opportunity for a “your mom…” joke.
"A champion is someone who gets up when he can't."
- Jack Dempsey
by infinityzero.systemerror on Jan 13, 2012 8:30 AM EST up reply actions
With all due respect, Mr. Nukem...
Patently false? Your post implies that I meant Smits was not good. He was very good. I remember watching those years in the mid-90’s and he improved pretty much every year until about the ’98 season, when age/health began to catch up to him. But please,a comparison of ppg stats between the two must consider that the Pacers in the 90s never had the amount of scoring options these Pacers had – and in his prime, Smits was the second scoring option. None of this is a knock against Smits, who I like very much and think was a very good player. I simply meant that Hibbert is a better all around player at this point in his career, and IMHO think he will at least as good as Smits was.
by taipei_coltsfan on Jan 13, 2012 9:38 AM EST up reply actions
He may be
But you said Smits didn’t develop fast enough. That part’s false. Also Hibbert is, by all intents and purposes, this team’s second scoring option. It’s a toss up between him and West, but if he’s not second, he’s a close third (as Smits was once Jalen Rose became a starter…and Smits still outscored Hibbert). The problem with Roy is that he doesn’t have Smits’s consistent long range jump shot, which would be fine if he could be consistently dominant down low…which he is not. But to your point that he may be better one day, I will concede that Hibbert, at the same point in his career, had been playing basketball for probably half as many years as Smits had. I’m just worried he’s already peaked or is peaking.
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Interesting note...
… Rik Smits’ nickname was the Dunkin’ Dutchman. Cool, huh?

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