Honeymoon's over.

by hoosier3060 on Feb 28, 2011 3:56 AM EST

I, like many of you, was making a fool of myself when I heard of the Jim O'Brien firin'. I liked Frank Vogel's enthusiasm and how it got some of our players back on board. It was great. Just like a new car.

Well, I feel that the new coach smell is starting to wear off.

Have you seen these guys? I don't know about you, but our on-ball defense has been terrible, forcing our players to leave their off-ball man to help out while players like Grant Hill get wide open for threes (GRANT HILL?! WTF!?). We aren't boxing out while the other team just snags the offensive rebounds. For some reason, our shooting efficiency could be compared to the efficiency of Shaquille O'Neal's free throws. Turnovers, poor shots, poor basketball. Frank Vogel's been giving more rope for players to hang themselves with. We aren't at the gallows pole yet. But, damn, that noose is getting tight.

It's really hard to tell if this is just a bad stretch that we hit or if it's a sign of things to come down the line. Frank's initial schedule was a proverbial walk on the beach. The East's superstar power may be on the upside, but the West still has better teams. As the schedule gets tougher (and much more frequent), it will show the true Pacer metal. I'm expecting the worst to avoid disappointment. But just because I'm expecting the worst, doesn't mean I want to see it. Does Frank need to put his foot down? Would it even be effective as he has already given the players their new found freedoms? Someone needs to 'up' the accountability for blown assignments, blown judgements (24 second clock?), and play that just plain blows. Coaches can do it, but as John Kuester said, players don't like coaches and coaches don't like players. Someone in a uniform needs to lead by example and fast. Otherwise, we might be headed to the lottery again. THAT... would blow.

Quick thoughts before I go:

1. Josh doesn't like to box out. His high school coach barked at him constantly for that, according to a former high school teammate of his that I was throwing back beers with this weekend.

2. Danny's pissin' me off. He was very lucky to be in Jim O'Brien's three-happy system as he would be on the wing, in prime position to fire the long ball. Now that we go inside, Danny is forced to be tougher. He's shown his true colors when having to deal with physical adversity (he looks like a wuss out there). His shot is flat as a board, causing the ball to fire dead on, smack violently off the front of the rim, or smack violently off the back of the rim. He looks like he's coasting out there. Danny doesn't have the physical talent to slack. Sometimes I feel he is Chuck Person 2.0, and sometimes I wish there fates would be similar... except that we get a really good 2 or 4 in exchange.

3. Roy's looking soft out there. I know he's still in his third year. But he needs his ass into the gym. I know he worked his ass off this year trying to take weight off. Good job Roy. You did really well. Now you need to do one of two things. Either you work on your quickness, footwork, and jump shot, or you get your butt back into the gym. But don't focus on weight loss. Focus on muscle gain. He's too soft down there and not fast enough to make up for it. Work on your footwork big guy. Maybe take some pointers from Hakeem Olajuwon with your post moves.

4. This thought ran through my head today during halftime. Do we need to consider trading Darren Collison? Think about it. He's a scoring point guard in a system that should be designed for a true point guard. Perhaps we need a better distributer rather than a scorer? Perhaps DC2 just needs to hone that part of his game? Now, it may be a radical idea, but rebelling against the King of England because we didn't want to pay taxes was a little on the "radical" idea back then too. Just sayin'.

5. I see what Larry Bird meant when talking about Lance Stephenson's talent. The kid's got chops and could be a real force down the line. No BS. When he gets on TV, just watch for him. You should be impressed. I was.

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I'll give it go.

1. Agreed, but that can be said by a wide range of the players.
2. I can’t agree about Danny. Sure, he isn’t the toughest guy in the world, but I don’t think he’s as bad as you seem to think. For a guy whose shot is so poor, he sure has been efficient lately. He is still the best player on our team. There are several more fitting players to be dissatisfied with, including a certain someone on the wing (my personal favorite punching bag).
3. Yes, he is too soft at times and needs to bulk up in the lower body so he can maintain his position better. I do believe his post game has improved over the season, not particularly concerned about that.
4. I was one of the few who didn’t have much desire to have Collison to start with. However, when he became a member of the team I put that aside and had (have?) high hopes for him. I mean, it’d be hard for me not to be happy with getting him considering he got rid of another favorite punching bag in Troy Murphy. I have doubts that he is the answer, as you do, at the point guard position. Nonetheless, I sincerely hope it places those doubts to rest.
5. He has potential and talent, but still… it was 4 minutes. I like him though, just saying.

by infinityzero.systemerror on Feb 28, 2011 5:58 AM EST reply actions

Look to see what happens to Danny in the 4th quarter when the game is close. When the going gets tough, Danny’s defender usually gets going while Mr. Granger seems to shut down. Danny seems to be the guy I attack because he is our “franchise player”. He is our main go-to guy. Chuck Person was one of those at one point. Then some one guy named Reggie Miller came up and took that title.

by hoosier3060 on Feb 28, 2011 11:56 AM EST up reply actions

Danny has made plays late that tied or gave us the victory.

Lebron chokes at the end of games but people don’t seem to complain about him. Being clutch is about far than scoring, I don’t really have any problem with the ball being in Danny’s hands at the end. I do think that PG will be the franchise player in a few years though, but it’s still Danny at the moment.

by infinityzero.systemerror on Feb 28, 2011 6:53 PM EST up reply actions

Danny is not clutch

The ball being in Danny’s hands at the end of the game equals a loss or overtime in a tied game. The guys shrivels like a raisin when the pressure is on. People have cited the game in Phoenix a couple of years ago when he hit a game-winner. A couple of years ago. Sad.

Paul George will be the next Pacers all-star.

by Scott Herbst on Feb 28, 2011 8:09 PM EST up reply actions

He helped us win with the game close just last week.

He was indeed the one who made the pass to Rush for a dunk at the last second. He is not a great clutch performer, I can agree, but who else do we give the ball too. Only guy who seems to get better in these type of situations is PG. It seems Mike Dunleavy could be a good choice to have the floor at crunch time. Oh yeah, Rush collapses under the pressure too. Foster gets worse. Collison is worse. Everyone on the team gets worse in these situations. Danny’s our best chance for better or worse. Clutch is a bit misconstrued anyways, since very few actually get better in this situation.

by infinityzero.systemerror on Feb 28, 2011 8:32 PM EST up reply actions

yeah the whole league gets worse

by dbcb on Feb 28, 2011 9:22 PM EST up reply actions

I agree

Pacers don’t have many options. No matter how “clutch” you are, I think you have to want the ball at the end of the game. I am not sure Granger wants that. I sometimes feel he takes it because the coach calls the play for him or because he thinks since he is the “go to guy” he has to be the one to take the last shot. I don’t think he relishes the idea. I feel LeBron is the same way. I think that is a big reason LeBron joined up with Wade, so he doesn’t always have to be “the guy”.

Paul George will be the next Pacers all-star.

by Scott Herbst on Feb 28, 2011 9:29 PM EST up reply actions

dude

danny’s shooting percentage has increased a ton since Vogel has taken over. He was shooting around 42% and its up to 43.5% now.

So right danny has shown his true colors… shooting better, getting to the free throw line better, and not settling for so many 3’s and long 2’s. How dare he play better!

by dbcb on Feb 28, 2011 6:25 AM EST reply actions

Where was that shooting percentage on that dreadful potential ‘game-winner’? His flat shot smacked violently off front iron, just like I keep saying. I actually think they need to get him shooting more threes. I think we’ve gone too cold turkey from the long ball. Imagine if Danny’s three becomes more frequent. Catch and shoot situations will be awesome because it will allow Danny that pump and drive capability. He can’t drive on his own. He’s not quick enough for that.

by hoosier3060 on Feb 28, 2011 12:01 PM EST up reply actions

Just want to remind everyone

This is what we all (well, the vast majority) wanted. The kids are playing. Tyler and PG are getting consistent minutes. Darren’s in his 2nd year, Rush and Roy their 3rd, Josh his 4th (if you want to count his rookie year), Hansbrough and Price their 2nd, PG’s a rookie. That’s 7 players that play minutes every night, many of them major minutes.

Step back for a second and ask yourself what you expected. I’m not excusing anything, especially everyone’s awful defense (especially Danny), just offering a reminder of just how damn young our rotation is. There are going to be peaks and valleys, big ones.

Larry Bird turned Troy Murphy into Darren Collison

by IndyPacers on Feb 28, 2011 6:28 AM EST reply actions

And in the case of Rush.

A painfully consistent valley, which I suppose can’t be considered a valley any longer. It would become something more of a plain. Completely flat with an occasional hill that somehow gets people excited begging for more only to be rewarded with more flat plain.

by infinityzero.systemerror on Feb 28, 2011 6:44 AM EST up reply actions

winner^

by dbcb on Feb 28, 2011 8:57 AM EST up reply actions

This is Brandon Rush’s last chance. He’s been under Jim O’Brien his career. If he keeps this inconsistency up, time to move him. If he can’t win with a democratic type of coach, he sure as hell won’t win with a autocratic type either.

by hoosier3060 on Feb 28, 2011 12:04 PM EST up reply actions

only thing that makes me mad

is the defense, because JOB showed this team, as built, can play defense if they try.

The rest of our problems are lack of talent. hell, we are play 4 players in our rotation who have PER’s under average— George (14.9), Jones (13.7), Price (11.6), Rush (11.1)— I mean if you play 2 players who are in the “scrounging for minutes” category heavy minutes… eww

by dbcb on Feb 28, 2011 9:06 AM EST up reply actions

Have you noticed

that our second string players often play better than the starters? And don’t give me the playing second string against second string as our second stringers often will stay out on the floor against the oposing teams starters.

by Rogco on Feb 28, 2011 9:08 AM EST up reply actions

idk what that has to do with what I said?

But it helps when our back up 2 is better than the starter (George is better than Rush) and our back up 4 is better than our starter (hans is better than Mcroberts) and oru back up 5 is a much better defender than our starter.

by dbcb on Feb 28, 2011 9:45 AM EST up reply actions

I'm still happy

So we haven’t played the best basketball, but we’re still playing much better than we were under JOB. Every game has been close with a chance to win heading down the stretch, and the players are hustling the butts off.

I’m a little worried about the defense, mainly Collison, Granger and boxing out (People are really torn on Granger right now, and I’m moving more away from him, in part cause his iso at the end of games is a nightmare, and in part because his defense has been so bad.)

Still, the team is fun to watch so you might as well keep supporting them.

by Rogco on Feb 28, 2011 9:07 AM EST reply actions

This isn't about honeymoons, this is about D

Two me these past couple games have been more about DG and DC’s complete lack of defensive focus than the honeymoon being over.

by JShell7 on Feb 28, 2011 10:47 AM EST reply actions

Honeymoon makes for a better attention grabbing headline. lol.

by hoosier3060 on Feb 28, 2011 12:06 PM EST up reply actions

I don't understand Collison

He’s been given free reign, and his handle and vision seem much worse than when he was staring for NO when Paul was out last year. The only thing I can think of is that he needs a really good PF run the pick-and-roll (or pop) with. West is a free agent, so that could work. But getting our point guard’s assist numbers up should not be the motivation behind signing a new PF. He needs to start growing up and adapting to the players he has.

"You're hitting the wrong person. Don't you know you're hitting Ron Artest?"

Come visit The Fantasy Ninjas. We'd love to hear from you.

by LukeNukem on Feb 28, 2011 11:40 AM EST reply actions

Hansbrough is a good PF for a pick and roll

but they usually run him with Price. I would love to see Collison and Psycho T get more minutes together.

"My game’s like the Pythagorean Theorem. It ain’t got no answer." - Shaq

Follow me on Twitter @JWM_IndySports

by bleedinblueandgold on Mar 1, 2011 2:53 AM EST up reply actions

Hans could make for a decent pick and pop poor man's David West type

if he’d y’know, actually make contact on his screen before rolling off of it

Larry Bird turned Troy Murphy into Darren Collison

by IndyPacers on Mar 1, 2011 3:03 AM EST up reply actions

for someoen that played 4 years at a top college and under a top coach

some of his fundamentals are really really lacking

by dbcb on Mar 1, 2011 10:15 AM EST up reply actions

We are playing the young guys and they are going to take their licks. The veterans give us the best chance to win and they aren’t playing. Do you want to go back to having the best chance to win or letting the young guys gain experience. You can’t have it both ways. It’s not like John Wall is helping his team win.

The defense has been pretty bad, but it’s the TOs that are killing us. I see so many passes that shouldn’t even be made. Cut down the TOs and I bet we start winning more games. Like I put in another thread, the Pacers aren’t good at forcing TOs, so that means we need to protect the ball better.

The Pacers are shooting the ball well and that is what’s keeping us in the game. Just need to play smarter and stop turning the ball over at such a high rate.

by Sparhawk on Feb 28, 2011 12:19 PM EST reply actions

With the current roster, you can't have your cake & eat it too.

We all got our wish on JOB, and letting the young guys play. They responded and for the most part have done well. But if you re going to play that much youth, you have to take the good with the bad. They are going to have bad nights and sometimes more than one will have them on the same night. Basically what we have is a very good COLLEGE team with all this youth. On a veteran laden team, most of these guys would still be fighting to get 10 min a game. None of them will ever be superstars. But all this playing time can only help them going forward. PATIENCE guys! Even if we make the playoffs, you can bet we will be out in 5 games and waiting for the off season. The upside is that they played the youth, let them take their knocks and everyone of these guys are going to be better for it.

by DenoLoneWolf on Feb 28, 2011 3:41 PM EST reply actions

PG isn't a 2 he's a 3

He’s not as quick as Rush is guarding 2’s he needs to continue to back up Danny and Tay should be backing Rush… Tay looked awful Sunday he shot like 3-11 in 12 mins (correct me if I’m wrong) ? Also our frontcourt has been getting bullied lately we need our guys to get physical. However, yesterday afternoon Gortat was getting away with a lot of shoving in the back and grabbing players for rebounds. You could see Foster and Josh getting visably frustrated by it.

Also Rush played well yesterday… his first shot attempt didn’t fall but DC passed him the ball late and allowed the defender time to rotate. If DC would look for the easiest bucket on a fast break (ie Chris Paul and Rondo) instead of trying to attack the basket (Derrick Rose, Westbrook) I think we’d be better off. While DC is fast and can finish pretty well he doesn’t have the superior athleticism of Rose, Westbrook or D-Will.

Does our team have room for improvement? Yeah we sure do, which is why it is crucial we get a great coach in here that can lead our team to victories. We need better decision making as a team and a front court that can attack the offensively and attack the glass for rebounds.

by Pedro4Prez on Feb 28, 2011 4:25 PM EST reply actions

So too conclude

I’m not disappointed in our team. It is nice to see how far along they’ve come compared to years past and how much fun they look to be having. Now we need our FANS to step up and cheer them to victory. Steve Nash got a standing ovation by our FANS… that is BS

by Pedro4Prez on Feb 28, 2011 4:28 PM EST up reply actions

Trust me the true fans are still there. Any sort of support for the opposing team? Oh yeah, lock and load. They made the mistake of putting Gordon Haywood’s family right above Area 55. Gordon Haywood’s family does NOT like Area 55 now. Everyone is fair game, even if it’s a local kid.

by hoosier3060 on Feb 28, 2011 5:14 PM EST up reply actions

PG guarded Dwayne Wayne better than anyone else on our team. I think PG can play the 2 or the 3.

by Sparhawk on Feb 28, 2011 6:36 PM EST up reply actions

Did you forget

How Rush shut down D-Wade when we beat them in Miami?

by Pedro4Prez on Feb 28, 2011 10:20 PM EST up reply actions

I think that was more Wade that night than Rush.

by infinityzero.systemerror on Mar 1, 2011 12:31 AM EST up reply actions

course it was

look, I don’t mean to call anyone out, and hell maybe I just can’t accept the opinion of many that Rush is a scrub because he teases me so, but plenty of others are guilty of the exact same thing in the opposite direction. Rush and McBob have become some pretty damn divisive players and Danny’s reaching that tipping point. I just want people to throw bias aside and really watch Rush on the defensive end. Not for one game, for a good 2 week 5+ game stretch or so and try and convince me he’s not by FAR (FAR, another one’s needed) our best defensive player. If someone doesn’t think he provides enough as a 13th pick, they’re wrong but whatever, if they don’t think he provides enough to be a starting 2 agreed (especially with our roster), but I feel like so many people think he’s some scrub that has place in the NBA.

We make the playoffs, especially if we matchup with Miami, Rush will win us a game with his defense. Watch. I’ll put it in my signature if you want.

Larry Bird turned Troy Murphy into Darren Collison

by IndyPacers on Mar 1, 2011 3:09 AM EST up reply actions

^ place = no place

Larry Bird turned Troy Murphy into Darren Collison

by IndyPacers on Mar 1, 2011 3:10 AM EST up reply actions

I want you to make that your signature.

If Rush wins us a playoff game, I will change my profile pic, change my signature to “Rush is the greatest ever player, MJ who?”, and I will praise him blindly. That is how confident I am that he will not win us a playoff game. I’ll even buy his jersey just to top it off.

by infinityzero.systemerror on Mar 1, 2011 3:42 AM EST up reply actions