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The Donnie Walsh Eight-Year Plan

On the heels of SB Nation's recent NBA GM Rankings, Pacers front office guru Larry Bird was lambasted as the worst GM in the league for his lack of "direction." Tom dove deeper into this being a bit of a questionable decision, though community lines remain torn on the issue.

There's no denying the lack of moves by an average Pacers team is going to draw questions from everyone, but the situation was very difficult to maneuver when Bird finally took over the reigns completely from Donnie Walsh in 2008. However, personally, I question how Pat Riley deserves to be first for doing what numerous other GMs did, except getting the benefit of receiving the prize thanks to assumed player collusion.

Regardless, very little was given to the Pacers situation in giving Bird any benefit of the doubt for a grade that still seems very much "incomplete." After all, this is the year where Bird will mark his weight as a GM in this league, not in having very little pull or valuable assets to move the past few.

Larry Bird has given us his "Three-Year Plan," and though it may lack "direction," it's still a process, but what of the situation former Pacers GM Donnie Walsh walked into? What about his "Eight-Year Plan?"

Star-divide

Donnie Walsh was named Pacers GM in 1986 after joining the franchise in 1984. The following quote is an excerpt from Steve Mannheimer's book Pacer Power!: The 1994 Wonder Season of the Indiana Pacers, a book Pacers fans should attempt to search out if they can, if only to relive the 1993-94 season:

 "For so long," Donnie explained, "this has been a high-school and college area of fan support for basketball teams. The fans are accustomed to thinking terms of four year intervals. ... they can still misunderstand the pro game, mostly because their time sense of the big picture, so to speak, is working at a different rate.

"When I took over the Pacers in 1986, I realized we had a long way to go to build this team. The only way you can build a better team is through the draft or by trades.

"... But in '86, we didn't have the players to trade. Our team wasn't good enough then. So that meant the draft was going to main way to improve. And that would take me four years.

"And even then, even if you have the talent, it's going to take you three or four years to fine-tune it - and that's only if everything goes perfect. ... So when I took over I realized it was a seven or eight year process."

Would fans feel better if Bird lined out his "plan" in this sense? When Walsh took over the Pacers in 1986, he figured it would take eight years for them to be a really good team. As the Pacers reached the Eastern Conference Finals for the first time in 1994, his "eight year plan" was a success. Does it mean Bird's "plan" or "direction" cannot?

Before I begin, I unfortunately can not take first hand information on these events, I have to rely on my previous knowledge of the players, their statistics, the internet and writings, and their basketball cards (which were always strangely rosy in player descriptions) to get a full grasp on who these players I didn't see play were, since I was two when Walsh took over and have first memories as a Pacers fan during the 1993-94 season. If there is any more insight as to the reaction to the job Walsh was doing in his early tenure in addition to his acquisitions, those would be much appreciated to help round out the entire picture.

The "youth movement" was in full swing for the Pacers in 1986, who had nine players on the roster who were 25 or under. Of those, notables included Wayman Tisdale, Vern Fleming, and Steve Stipanovich. Clark Kellogg was only 24, but his career had already taken a massive hit by injuries.

1986 NBA Draft

Walsh drafted Auburn star Chuck Person with the fourth overall pick, also selected Greg Dreiling (2, 26). Four more players were selected, none of which signed or played with the Pacers, confirming that the NBA Draft was still at least four rounds too long in 1986.

1986 Summer

Hired Jack Ramsey as coach; traded two second rounders to the Bulls for Kyle Macy (28 yrs., 8.6 PTS/2.2 REB/5.4 AST in 27 minutes); released Dwayne McClain (22, 3.5/0.7/1.5 in 10), Bill Garnett (25, 4.3/3.4/1.2 in 15), and Bill Martin (23, 5.0/1.5/0.8 in 11); traded Terrence Stansbury (24, 6.7/1.9/2.8 in 18) and Russ Schoene (hadn't played for Indiana since 1983, played in Europe) to Seattle for John Long (29, 10.0/1.6/1.3) and a second round pick.

The roster turnover in 1986 improved the Pacers by 15 wins, and put them into the playoffs for the first time since 1981. Person would be named Rookie of the Year, John Long found a career revitalization after falling out of favor in Detroit, and the other young assets (Tisdale, Fleming, and Stipanovich) showed improvement.

1987 NBA Draft and Summer

Walsh selected Reggie Miller with the 11th overall pick, also selected Brian Rowsom (2, 34). Four more players were selected, again, none played for the team. The saga with Reggie Miller is well known, with Walsh passing on local legend Steve Alford.

Traded second rounder to Milwaukee for Scott Skiles (22, 3.8/2.0/3.5 in 13 games); re-signed Steve Stipanovich and Vern Fleming; failed to tender Kyle Macy; signed Clinton Wheeler (1981 7th round pick, no NBA experience), lost Clark Kellogg to retirement.

1987-88 season

Waived Brian Rowsom (four games played) and Clint Richardson (31-year old hadn't played a game in the season). The Pacers finished 38-44 and outside of the playoffs. Chuck Person became the focus of opposing teams and failed to adjust coupled with regression from Herb Williams and John Long. Wayman Tisdale and Fleming continued to improve.

1988 NBA Draft and Summer

Walsh selected Rik Smits with with the second overall pick. Also drafted Herbert Crook (3, 61) and Michael Anderson (3, 73). Much like Miller, the Smits pick was seen as a miss for a lengthy amount of time, especially as Charles Smith (third overall) exploded for the Clippers.

Lost Clinton Wheeler to the Hornets in the 1988 Expansion Draft; signed Anthony Frederick (1986 6th rounder), Richard Morton (undrafted free agent), and Stuart Gray (1984 Pacers second rounder); traded Ron Anderson to New York for Everette Stephens (1987 second rounder).

I can't see an impact pickup made in this summer at all. Looking at the lack of impact, coupled with the career ending injury of Steve Stipanovich prior to season's start...

1988-89 season

Jack Ramsey resigns, Mel Daniels interim, George Irvine hired (and replaced by), Dick Versace hired as head coach; traded Wayman Tisdale and second rounder to Sacramento for LaSalle Thompson (27, 15.0/9.1/1.0 through 43 games) and Randy Wittman (29, 3.8/0.8/1.0 through 32 games); traded Herb Williams to Dallas for Detlef Schrempf (26, 9.5/4.5/2.3 through 37 games) and a second rounder; waived John Long.

The Pacers had a dreadful 88-89 season, finishing 28-54. Schrempf proved to be a valuable addition, as did the growth of Reggie Miller, Chuck Person, and Vern Fleming.

1989 NBA Draft, summer, and 1989-90 season

Drafted George McCloud with the seventh overall pick. This pick would be the worst of Walsh's early tenure, making it the third straight year he had drafted a question mark, even though Reggie Miller was budding into a young star. Traded Stuart Gray to Charlotte for second round pick Dyron Nix (2, 29).

Resigned Detlef Schrempf; lost Scott Skiles to Orlando in 1989 Expansion Draft; signed Mike Sanders (28, 9.3/3.7/1.6 in 26 minutes), Rickey Green (35, 4.6/1.1/3.0 in 63 games), and and Calvin Natt (32, 6.3/3.3/0.8 in 24 games).

This summer is worth mentioning as a question mark given the way the Pacers laid low again in the offseason, only resigning Schrempf and bunting their way to roster improvements on a 28-win team. The 1988 and 1989 offseasons seems strangely familiar to the Pacers 2009 or even 2010 offseason in regards to impact and action to a below average team that is waiting to see their current assets pan out.

As for the season, the Pacers finished 42-40 and made the playoffs. Reggie Miller named an All-Star; Chuck Person, Detlef Schrempf improved. Pacers find themselves in need of point guard help.

1990 NBA Draft, summer, and 1990-91 season

Drafted Antonio Davis (2, 45) and Kenny Williams (2, 46). Signed Micheal Williams (23, 6.9/1.4/3.5 in 22 games), lost Rickey Green to Philadelphia; signed Kenny Williams.

Dick Versace was fired after a 9-16 start, replaced by Bob Hill. Pacers finished the season at 41-41 and fell to the Boston Celtics in the most exciting five game series in NBA history. A lot of this series is up on YouTube, so give it a glance if you get a chance (this series featured the Larry Bird heroics in game 5 to prevent the massive upset).

Reggie Miller continued to be the leader, as Walsh put it, it was this season he realized they had three of the same player in Miller, Chuck Person, and Detlef Schrempf, who all continued playing well. Rik Smits struggled mightily in his third year, Micheal Williams was emerging as a potential PG prospect.

Walsh was entering his sixth summer, and despite two straight playoff appearances, the team hadn’t taken form yet. Miller and Person were the go-tos. Schrempf was your sixth man by default. Maybe Micheal Williams is something at the PG spot, and Fleming makes a serviceable backup. But those are your pieces. Smits struggled, McCloud still showed nothing, LaSalle Thompson wasn’t a viable option at PF, Greg Dreiling started 42 games. After five seasons, the Pacers had not improved a game.

1991 NBA Draft and summer, 1991-92 season

Dale Davis was drafted with the thirteenth pick. Walsh also selected Sean Green (2, 41). The Pacers stood pat the remainder of the offseason, only waving Mike Sanders shortly after the season began.

The team finished 40-42 and was swept out of the playoffs. There was very little change from the previous year in terms of production, though Micheal Williams averaged 15/8 as the starting PG. Chuck Person had an altercation with a cameraman, Smits still struggled to keep his starting job over Dreiling, McCloud was not panning out.

1992 NBA Draft and summer, 1992-93 season

Malik Sealy was selected 14th overall in the draft. The Pacers traded Chuck Person and Micheal Williams to Minnesota in exchange for Pooh Richardson (25, 16.5/3.7/8.4) and Sam Mitchell (28, 10.1/5.8/1.1) in hopes of answering the Pacers long term issue at PG.

The Pacers didn’t improve in the win column, finishing 41-41 and suffering a first round exit to the Knicks. Schrempf had moved to the starting lineup, Dale Davis had an impressive second year (averaging 9/9), Smits was being run out of town. Richardson wasn’t as big of a force as he was hoped to be.

1993 NBA Draft and summer

Walsh selected Scott Haskin from Oregon State with the 13th pick. Also selected were Thomas Hill (2, 39) and Spencer Dudley (2, 51). Larry Brown as hired as head coach. Walsh had wanted Brown for years, but didn't feel his team was mature enough to win under Brown until 1993. The Pacers signed Antonio Davis (1990 second rounder) and Haywoode Workman (25, 8.0/3.3/4.8); traded Sean Green to Philadelphia for a second rounder. Just before the season began, Walsh traded Detlef Schrempf to Seattle for Derrick McKey (26, 13.4/4.2/2.6) and Gerald Paddio (27, 3.9/1.2/0.8 in 41 games). In early December, the Pacers signed free agent Byron Scott (31, 13.7/2.3/2.7).

The fruits of this offseason were the culmination of seven years of building. The Detlef Schrempf trade was seen as a big swing in Seattle’s favor, but the Sonics bowed out in the first round with Schrempf as McKey and the Pacers lost in the Eastern Conference Finals. Rik Smits finally emerged as Dale and Antonio Davis had breakout years, all under the guidance of Larry Brown.

It took eight years for Donnie Walsh to get the Pacers out of the first round and into contention. From this season, the Pacers were guided to six Eastern Conference Finals and an Eastern Conference Championship. It’s impossible to imprint the legacy of a general manager in just three years, since doing so would paint Walsh in an unfavorable light.

Since taking over the team full time in 2007, Larry Bird has had to perform a difficult undertaking with troublemakers, no cap flexibility for years, and a need to rebuild with youth. We complain about Jim O’Brien, but the reason Walsh didn’t bring Larry Brown in earlier was because his team was too young to make use of his skills. The same can be said of this Pacers team and any number of coaches.

Walsh needed four years of drafting to get his long term pieces set. He used Chuck Person to gain long term assets, and drafted Reggie Miller, Rik Smits, Antonio Davis, and Dale Davis as long term players. Even looking at Bird’s draft history, his worst pick is seen as Brandon Rush, who is nowhere near as big of a bust as George McCloud was.

Bird has had three years to build through the draft and has appeared to find Roy Hibbert, with verdicts still out on Tyler Hansbrough, A.J. Price, and Brandon Rush (to be fair on Rush’s behalf). He has gotten so much praise with the potential of Paul George and Lance Stephenson that if only one pans out to the level they’re supposed to, this franchise will reap the rewards.

I would believe Jarrett Jack’s emergence and ridiculous contract were not in the plans as I suspect he was intended to be kept, much as Scott Skiles was. Bird’s signings of Earl Watson and Dahntay Jones are stop-gap signings that don’t upset any long term plans, much like Walsh’s signings of Mike Sanders, Rickey Green, and Calvin Natt in 1989.

One of Bird’s biggest strikes is that he stands pat, while Walsh stood pat with his young and painfully average (remember all those Indy .500 jokes?) team more than he probably should have. The bottom line is, well, what I’ve been preaching: it takes patience to fix this mess. There is no quick solution.

Bird is not the worst GM in the league because he doesn’t make moves just to make moves. If there is a long term plan in effect, a direction that seems so laughable, Walsh needs to made guilty of it after three years as well. And for the love of Sunday, if Pat Riley is the best GM in the NBA right now for essentially winning the lottery, maybe this list isn’t so accurate after all.

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I believe those Pacers teams of the 80's

Were worse than the teams the Pacer’s have fielded the past few years. Still, there are parallels as each scenario presents a complete rebuilding process.

We’ve just got to get our young players experience this year. I hope to trade Murphy for a protected 1st round pick, non-lottery, and a contract filler. This is the starting 5 I hope to see used, most often, after Murph is traded.

C: Hibbert
PF: Hansbrough
SF: Granger
SG: George
PG: Stephenson

I know. Essentially 3 rookies. Crazy. Still, why not? The Pacers aren’t going anywhere this season, even if they make the playoffs. We need to give our young players time to develop for the future. And if we suck, oh well. Maybe we’ll have a nice lottery pick.

The time is not now. Let’s plan for the future.

by MillerTime31 on Jul 25, 2010 4:55 PM EDT reply actions  

Well...

It looks like those are the best five on our team at this point. Nice article by the way, although the impending lockout season is a bit different than what Walsh dealt with. I have a question regarding a lockout, Will players contracts continue to countdown in a situation such as that or will their contracts be frozen?

by infinityzero.systemerror on Jul 25, 2010 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Rik

Rik Smits didn’t have struggle years such as Brandon Rush. Smits had something to contribute to the team from day one. Look at Hibbert and then Smits. Hibbert is the new younger Smits. Smits struggled are you crazy. NO Rush has struggled.

by Nichey101 on Jul 25, 2010 4:56 PM EDT reply actions  

I agree that Hibbert is a younger Smits

And that kind of worries me. Both were rather slow, deliberate.. and in a word – finesse. In today’s NBA, the game is almost too fast for Roy. I hope he proves me wrong.

by MillerTime31 on Jul 25, 2010 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hibbert is slow agree

But Hibbert isn’t to slow for today’s NBA. There our two players on our team that would thrive if Jim O would use there game the way there game is meant to play. If the players cvant fit YOUR system fit the players system. T.J. Ford has much more to offer but O,Brien won’t utilize it much like Roy

by Nichey101 on Jul 25, 2010 5:05 PM EDT reply actions  

I don't see what Walsh did

I guess it was just getting a good coach (Brown) & signing an undervalued champion leader (Scott) that no other team wanted. December?!?! Otherwise, he was stuck in the mud for 7 years. All his trades were downgrades.

by Pacer84 on Jul 25, 2010 5:21 PM EDT reply actions  

The 80's were a different era

Walsh had to build the way he did. There wasn’t free agency or a salary cap in those days.

Look at how adept Walsh was at rebuilding this team in 2000. That is a better assessment of his talents as a GM.

Even in the 80’s, he turned vets like Herb Williams into Detlef, and was able to pick up draft picks in the top 5.

In Indiana. We aren’t going to get Melo or Chris Paul to come here via free agency. So we have to shoot for 5 year windows and draft well. Larry Bird just doesn’t seem to subscribe to this theory. We needed to bottom out and trade any assets for picks and prospects.

Hopefully he has learned and will be aces going forward? But so far we have no evidence.

" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "

by aaronb on Jul 25, 2010 5:59 PM EDT reply actions  

Front office folks in the 80's were fools

Walsh was among the best back then. Too bad these guys from the Ivy League schools and MIT are fleecing guys like Walsh, Larry, McHale, and others. If a former player is currently running a team, I’d venture a guess that it’s a matter of time before they get ripped off.

by kennythered on Jul 25, 2010 9:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't think we're on too separate a page to be honest

Eras don’t change in regards to small market teams. We weren’t big players in free agency at any point in Walsh’s tenure, and we aren’t now. Walsh ignored using free agency to build valuable assets completely, and Bird should as well.

Walsh had two picks in the top five in his first eight years, one he stepped into and the other was a lucky lottery draw. Walsh was a hit or miss drafter his entire tenure. Dale Davis was the last draft pick that paid dividends for the Pacers until Travis Best. The Pacers also never bottomed out on his watch. Never. He drafted (er…whiffed) the seventh pick after the 88-89 season.

And there’s no denying the rebuild after 2000 being one of the best on the fly rebuilds in NBA history, but that doesn’t help prove my point: that at the same point in Walsh’s career, he was just as much an incomplete as Bird’s is right now. And that’s the point I want to make: that Larry Bird hasn’t had a chance to build this team through any means except mid-late lottery picks because the team hasn’t bottomed out (and won’t) and the trade assets aren’t there.

I’d say Bird had a good draft in 2008. Price played much better than expected in 2009, and every other pick is a big question mark. We don’t know if Bird isn’t drafting well because the only player to flat out doesn’t look good is Brandon Rush, who still isn’t as bad as Joe Alexander. Hansbrough looked like he could have a place in the NBA in what he was able to do despite horrid shooting numbers, and like I said, if the potential of this year’s draft pans out for just one of these guys, Bird did well.

You’re right to say we have no evidence he can do right. I also feel I’m right to say we have no evidence he can’t do right. Walsh was excellent at trading players at the peak of the value. Bird hasn’t had the same liberty (yet still managed to hustle Toronto out of a first rounder for O’Neal). Dunleavy was injured right after his breakout year, Ford’s trade value plummeting quickly, Foster can’t stay healthy long enough to trade him. The only player I see who hasn’t been dealt for legitimate value that could’ve been is Murphy. And it seems like there is a severe lack of Detlef-value return.

by Nathan S. on Jul 25, 2010 9:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Really??? Talent at the expense of character? Everyone knew who Artest and Jackson were.

Those guys were running the fans (and ticket sales) off in droves after only wearing the blue and gold a few years. Walsh wasn’t a genius. Have ya seen his work in NY…I mean NY, the place sells itself for free agents. He hit on a couple draft picks, no one beat him to death cause it took awhile for key players to develope, and fans were MUCH more patient then. I’m 40, I was watching…I think it’s more a reflection of our microwave, IPhone, I want it now society we have in 2010. It’s disgusting really. It’s gotten to the point people want things turned around in one year. Lol! It’s a joke! ALL you haters would’ve been TRASHING Walsh back in the day. Do you guys think that were some kinda hot destination for free agents?? Nobody wants to come here, period! We have corn and cold ass winters. As far as trades go, we can’t force teams to trade with us; and I think were done bringing in other peoples thugs…I hope so. Some things are more important then putting the little ball in the hoop, like explaining to your 7 year old why Pacers players are beating people down in the stands, or shooting up their city like the wild wild west…is winning a few games worth that to you guys??? I hope not, or there needs to be some reevaluation…anyways, (I started ranting, lol) can we take the Pacers franchise outta the microwave and give it longer than 30 seconds. Culture has improved, young key players are in place and developing, we have one bonafide NBA all-star, and cap space is around the corner…..Oh no, the sky is falling!…I mean I want what I want when I want it (roll on ground kicking feet and pounding fist on floor)

Confucious say "He who dives for loose balls need proper fitting athletic cup!"

by Wise Master on Jul 26, 2010 8:03 AM EDT up reply actions  

It's been 5 years and we still haven't gotten around to rebuilding

That’s hardly microwave time. That’s slow smoker time.

" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "

by aaronb on Jul 26, 2010 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions  

Good Article

Although I do think Birds worst draft pick was Sean WIlliams not Rush. Walsh said that the last 2 seasons that he was here Bird was the one who was in charge of the draft part and the trading part was Walshs doings. Walsh is the one who traded for Murph and DUn.
i dont know why everyone is so down on Bird.?? I think he has done a great job with what he has had to deal with. THe team had no cap and not much talent when he took over. He has done a great job with his plan and setting up a good young core and gettin rid of JOs contract.
My only question mark with bird is hiring JOB. Im sure coaches werent knocking down his door for the job but JOB is terrible. he must learn how to adapt his gaem to his players and he must play the young guys rookies or not! NOw is the time to see what he has becasue all of that money will get freed up and the team must know who they need to keep and get rid of.
Stephenson/PRice
George/Rush
Granger
hans/Rolle
Hib/Mcbob
Have got to be the players gettin the most minutes on this team win or lose. If they win great if they lose then great they will get a high lottery pick and the way the east is panning out with the heat, bulls, celtics, new york, orlando and whoever else im forgetting this pacers team isnt going to do much anyway

by supercolts on Jul 25, 2010 7:46 PM EDT reply actions  

Shawne Williams was drafted in 2006...

It would seem he took over in 2008, so he doesn’t get the full blame for that draft pick. JOB is an old dog, so as it goes he won’t be learning any new tricks. I agree with you that this team is better than some say. Relatively speaking, if Rush is his worst pick… Bird is a pretty good drafter then.

by infinityzero.systemerror on Jul 25, 2010 8:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

Williams is on Bird

There’s no denying that. But my goal isn’t to try and pin the blame on Bird for the Golden State trade or Shawne Williams, but rather to look at his turnover and work since he became the primary decision maker in 2008 compared to Walsh’s decisions in his early years in regards to patience and building a franchise that did not truly bottom out at any point in his tenure. Having the assets to trade doesn’t change even if eras do.

As for Obie, yeah, he’s worn out his welcome, but he was brought in to change the atmosphere of the franchise after arrests and gun shows and Carlisle’s lulling offense, and did just that in his first two years. He did the job he was supposed to do, it’s just a shame we still have to see that seem like it’s going to waste now.

I’m for playing the youth, but I’m also for putting the best product we can on the floor. I don’t want to hand minutes to guys who aren’t playing well just to see if they can. That’s counterproductive to the young guys in my opinion. While I also hate O’Brien’s rotations, he has a good eye for who is and who isn’t playing well.

by Nathan S. on Jul 25, 2010 9:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Bird deserves blame

Yes he took over just a few years back, but he has always been one the primary decision makers. Late in Walsh’s time with Indy it was a wash as to who was making the choices, and it was that way for probably 4 years.

On, the Williams pick: The guy was a stud and if I were given the choice to put my brain in Williams’ head after getting drafted or in George’s head, it’d be Williams because he has an unreal feel for the game and great skills. Now, did he flop because he is a thug and a fool, yes, but that is NOT on Larry. Rush, on the other hand, seems to not succeed because he merely sucks. I can watch D League games and find players with his game and talent level. Taking Rush over Anthony Randolph was his biggest mistake. Also, everyone was clamoring for Marcus Williams of UCONN instead of Shawne and Marcus ended up being a flop in the league as well (Rondo was the only player selected after Shawne in the first round that went on to have a great career and every though it was a HUGE reach when he was picked. I do not think it would be fair to say we took Williams over Rondo because anyone could have had Rondo).

My biggest problem is that Larry and Donnie worked hand in hand for a long time and both knew what the plan was. How come we act like Larry was an outside presence until 2008? We have been rebuilding, with Larry in the organization, for 6 seasons now and there is no end in sight. It all forces me to believe the ownership group is focused on other things, like moving the team, instead of the on court product.

by kennythered on Jul 25, 2010 9:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agreed!!!!!!!

It’s beyond unreasonable to say Bird wasn’t somehow culpable until 2008. The guy came here in 2003 and took the GM title. What former star player would allow someone else to use their name to make terrible basketball transactions? Why would Bird let Walsh make player transactions that Bird would be 100% against?

I really don’t understand why there are so many people who will stop at nothing to make excuses for the job Larry Bird has done?

Is it because he is a native hoosier?
Is it because he was a great player?

I stand firm in my belief that if his name was Lawrence Dove from Madison Wisconsin. You guys would hate him more than JOB.

He’s had ample input in every roster move since he was hired in 2003. To think otherwise is just passing the buck.

" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "

by aaronb on Jul 25, 2010 10:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

No

Wrong….to think otherwise is to simply present another side to the argument. You want to believe Bird had a large influence since ‘03 because it validates your argument that he sucks as a GM, President, etc. Similarly, those who support Bird want to believe he didn’t have much of a say until ‘08 because that would help prove their argument that he hasn’t been as bad of a personnel man as he’s sometimes portrayed.

The joke is on both sides, though. Unless someone from either side was in on Bird and Donnie’s meetings way back when, then no one has any clue just how big of a say he had or didn’t have. To speak “factually” about what Bird’s role was seven years ago is completely misguided and easily prone to bias.

The solution it seems is to focus on the present. And I think all would agree that it would be in all of our best interests to see this team start showing some positive signs of life regardless of who’s making personnel decisions.

by Hinrich10 on Jul 25, 2010 11:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

From his wiki

Bird resigned as Pacers coach shortly after the end of the 2000 season, following through on his initial promise to coach for only 3 years. In 2003, he returned as the Pacers’ President of Basketball Operations, where he oversees team personnel and coaching moves, as well as the team’s draft selections. The Pacers promoted David Morway to general manager in 2008, but Bird still has the final say in basketball matters.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Bird

" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "

by aaronb on Jul 26, 2010 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions  

a better source

Donnie Walsh himself said he reclaimed basketball operations after the brawl when they had to make nearly impossible trades. I don’t keep re-stating this to absolve Bird of any past sins, there are plenty. Solely pointing the finger in one direction just isn’t as easy as you’d like it to be. Actually it’s easy to point the finger, it’s just not accurate.

by Tom Lewis on Jul 26, 2010 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions  

Donnie Walsh built a semi dynasty here

And has brought the Knicks back from salary cap hell in 2 years.

Why is it obvious that he had a terrible 5 year run here while Bird did absolutely nothing?

Walsh has a much better track record over 20+ years.

" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "

by aaronb on Jul 26, 2010 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

are you saying

Walsh was merely a puppet for Bird? Doesn’t make sense but at this point it doesn’t really matter either.

by Tom Lewis on Jul 26, 2010 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

No, I'm saying

That Bird has made the player transactions since he got here as GM. Walsh stayed around to advise Bird. Help him with interactions with other GM’s. And assist him with the financial workings of the salary cap. More of a “Mentor” role.

I seriously doubt that Larry Bird would have put his name on a trade or signing unless it was exactly what he wanted to do. No way he comes into the organization and falls on the sword for Donnie Walsh’s player moves.

The friction that forced Walsh out was that Larry thought he had a team that could compete(on some level anyway). While Donnie Walsh thought the team lacked talent, and needed to be rebuilt.

Larry convinced management that we could win now, so Walsh was shown the door.

You might recall all the “I didn’t sign on to rebuild anything” talk that Bird was spewing around 2007.

" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "

by aaronb on Jul 26, 2010 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

I understand what you’re saying. I’m going with what Walsh says.

by Tom Lewis on Jul 26, 2010 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

Fair enough. Agree to disagree

I just find it hard that someone as competitive as Larry Bird is going to stand back while someone else makes roster moves on his account.

Maybe Larry was just an franchise puppet and mouth piece from 2003-2008? I sure wouldn’t have let the Pacers sully my reputation if I were him. But who knows?

Here is the complete list of Larry’s moves according to Hoops Hype.FWIW

http://hoopshype.com/general_managers/larry_bird.htm

" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "

by aaronb on Jul 26, 2010 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hard to believe

" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "

by aaronb on Jul 26, 2010 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

Here was Larry Bird's I'm not rebuilding quote. From the Star:

“Look, I came here to win. I didn’t come here to start from scratch and lose a ton of games. I understand what people say. I’ve watched, throughout this league over and over, and it’s very hard just to build a team through the draft. One of these days, it might come to that but that’s not me. I want to win. I come here to win. I didn’t come here to lose.”

" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "

by aaronb on Jul 26, 2010 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

Spec

That is a lot of speculation that wikipedia and hoopshype articles can’t even begin to prove correct. Again the logical thing for either side to do is stop griping over unknowns in the past and start rooting/hoping for a better future.

by Hinrich10 on Jul 26, 2010 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

No more speculation

Than that somehow Bird was a franchise building wizard that somehow had his hands tied since 2003.

Agreed that it is the past and we need to hope for a better future.

My frustration stems from the seemingly endless cast that will defend Larry Bird and excuse his failures at every turn.

" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "

by aaronb on Jul 26, 2010 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

But wasn't Larry part of all of this?

I point at Donnie, who I feel the game has passed by, and Larry, who I feel is not capable of running a team. If I were starting a franchise, I wouldn’t want either one. Give me a young hotshot from the Ivy League/MIT like Morey.

by kennythered on Jul 27, 2010 6:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hibbert is slow, but if we get an athletic power forward next him he’ll be fine. I think he’s more athletic then Smits though. Runs the floor better too.

by B-Huse on Jul 25, 2010 9:01 PM EDT reply actions  

I think Smits greatly benefitted from the arrival of the Davis’s and if Big Roy can get some talent with legitimate muscle around him he will be a very good C for many years.
Birds drafts have been pretty solid IMO

by D4 on Jul 26, 2010 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions  

Great blog goodlucksaturday!!

I enjoyed that read. It puts things in perspective for those with an open mind. We have some very closed minded people here about Bird as GM (nothing new from the usual suspects). But this blog should clear the air for less angry fans. Kudos to a solid piece!!

Confucious say "He who dives for loose balls need proper fitting athletic cup!"

by Wise Master on Jul 26, 2010 7:46 AM EDT reply actions  

It's Easy to Forget . . .

. . . the years of futility Boston went through before things came together
in 2008. It’s easy to forget the years the Magic had to endure after Shaq
but before Dwight. How about those Bulls for five or six years after Jordan?

As goodlucksaturday so aptly points out, these things take time. It’s not
a matter of making excuses for Bird. It’s way too early to even determine
whether excuses are called for.

Some posters sound like a five-year-old stomping his foot and screaming,
“I want my winner, and I want it NOW.”

This franchise got kicked in the teeth by several things that no general
manager (whether Walsh or Bird) could conceivably be blamed for. This
franchise was SERIOUSLY damaged. It appears to me that, so far, Bird
has been pretty “street smart” and has avoided huge blunders.

Let’s at least hold off until July 1, 2011 before even starting to pass judge-
ment and assign blame. On draft night, Tom Penn ( the ex-Portland
capologist) praised the Pacers as the one team in the league that has
brilliantly positioned itself for the upcoming labor problems / new CBA
by having so many contracts expire at the same time as the old CBA.

This stuff Bird is dedicating himself to isn’t all that easy. There are 29
other teams trying to do exactly the same thing he is. Patience, my
friends.

by fanaticus on Jul 26, 2010 5:42 PM EDT reply actions  

Interesting

I feel I have been patient, that is why I am still here.

The Magic did it through getting the top pick, which the Pacers seem to refuse to tank.

The Celtics got really lucky. I don’t want to wait on this either.

by kennythered on Jul 27, 2010 6:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

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