IC Cold Links: SB Nation GM Rankings Miss A Few Points On Bird
by Tom Lewis on Jul 23, 2010 6:00 AM EDT
in News
63 comments
I had to chuckle when I saw Mike Prada's GM rankings posted at SB Nation with Larry Bird listed as the worst GM in the NBA.
There are many members of this community who would agree, but I actually think Bird's has had a pretty solid offseason so far. The draft produced three players that have excited the fan base, betting on young talent after a couple of years of conservative drafts. Plus, the team hasn't made a panic move (at least yet) when several targeted point guard options had offers out of their price range. Maximizing the value of all of their expiring contracts is critical, so I appreciate the patience.
Part of the different feel to this summer can be attributed to some subtle but very meaningful changes in the front office. Ryan Carr took over the scouting department and respected quant, Kevin Pelton was brought in to consult with statistical analysis. So Bird and company have revamped their process for evaluating talent and making decisions and it shows.
The main problem with the analysis is that it falls prey to a common misconception that Bird has had the final say on all basketball matters since the 2003 offseason. Some of the contract extensions and two of the trades (Artest and Jackson/Harrington to GS) attributed to Bird were actually completed by Donnie Walsh, since Walsh assumed control of the basketball operations following the brawl. Plus, the Jermaine O'Neal trade remains a remarkable accomplishment for Bird even with the most slanted hindsight wishing J.O. wasn't dealt so his $23 million was off the books this summer. J.O. had to get out of that locker room, but that's another story entirely.
So this is really the second year that Bird has been in full control of the basketball decisions, an argument we've been over many, many times around here. How Bird completes this year and the state of the team after next summer will be the ultimate measure of his tenure with the Pacers.
The problem is everyone, including me, wants to point a finger of blame in one direction for the last few years of blah. A black and white answer is so much easier to digest. But from the brawl, to a few unsavory nightclub incidents, to coaching changes, draft misses, trades and bad contracts there are several shades of gray splattered on a large group of contributors to the overall mess.
This certainly includes Bird, but I just think it's unfair to pin the ills of the past six years on one person who wasn't actually in charge the whole time.
After the jump, a few links of interest with stories on Lance Stephenson signing, Team USA, free agent signings and an update on spreading Pacers' news in China.
- 2nd-round pick Stephenson gets multiyear deal
Jeff Rabjohns reports on the signing of Lance Stephenson with comment from GM David Morway. - PACERS: Site still spreading the word in China
Caught in the Web: On the occasion of the 10th anniversary of the launch of ChinaPacers.com, Bruno has a Q&A with the driving site behind that Website, Holick Lee. - Orlando Summer League Grades - Basketball News & NBA Rumors -
Some teams used the Orlando Summer League to develop and discover talent better than others. HOOPSWORLD grades all eight teams and how they used the week to improve. - Training with USA Basketball
Kevin Durant blogs about Team USA getting to work out in Las Vegas. - Rollercoaster Rajon Rondo Now 100 Percent Committed to Team USA
Chris Tomasson continues covering Team USA with a look at Rajon Rondo finally going all in for USA Basketball. - Source: Chris Paul's agent, Leon Rose, is gauging interest from various teams that may be interested in trading for Paul | NOLA.com
John Reid reports on Chris Paul trying to work his way out of New Orleans. - Marquis Daniels re-signs with Boston Celtics for one year, $2.5 million
Quisy gets another year to run with the Celtics. - Veteran swingman Matt Barnes signs with Los Angeles Lakers
Barnes decided to take less money to run with the Lakers next season. - Source: Kurt Thomas, Chicago Bulls agree to terms of contract
The Bulls appears set to add some a veteran presence to their bench. - Los Angeles Lakers add depth with 15-year veteran Theo Ratliff
Theo Ratliff adds a Lakers' sticker to his suitcase.
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I wouldn't say the worst...
am I happy with the team right now? No. But I wouldn’t say the worst. Of course, I am not the most knowledgeable basketball fan. At all.
Go White Sox!
I've never seen a supernova blow up, but if it's anything like my old Chevy Nova, it'll light up the night sky. - Fry
He's absolutely the worst
Hopefully we will see a competent GM come in and fix this thing at some point.
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "
Kahn!!!
the guy drafted point guards back to back last year, driving the better of the two away. in taking johny flynn he passed on steph curry. He then signed a third guard to a multi year deal who he is now trying to trade due to the fact that her has signed yet another pg to a multi year deal. Over paid darko. and to top it all off he gave away the key piece in the kg trade for a trade exception and picks. Ladies and gentleman your worst gm in the league.
by Cali Davi on Jul 23, 2010 10:37 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
I gotta agree.
There’s no way Kahn is not worse than Bird. And I think Bird has sucked, crazy bad, the last three years. Rush trade, Hansbrough draft, and Dahntay Jones signing help secure the second worst spot for me.
Khan is becoming a joke. I’m not sure how this guy is employed and yet some other team will probably hire him after the Wolves. Good lord.
Bird has been conservative, but he hasn’t been the worst GM (he’s definitely near the bottom though). I give him some slack since It’s hard to do your job when you have guaranteed contracts for Dun and Murph and no one wants them. If Bird had cap space starting 3 years ago, this team would look a lot different. The Rush trade was bad, Hansborough was just a bad draft choice when there were some quality PG. I liked the Dahntay Jones signing, but it’s really the coach’s fault for wanting anyone and everyone on the team to shoot 3’s. Cause spacing the floor is really the Pacers #1 problem. I’d start with a little more ball movement. Seems like everyone just stands around.
Bird’s draft this year was very refreshing, even if they drafted more wings. This team still has some needs, but it’s not like they were going anywhere in the playoffs.
I think by the start of next season, Pacer nation will know exactly what to make of Bird.
I dont think the Rush trade was that bad
I think Rush is much better than Bayless. Rush def has a better all around game and is a much much better defender and has is a true 2 guard where bayless is a tweener. I really dont think either of the two guys have really turned out but I would much rather have Rushs defense over Bayless.
I see.
He would have been a great player next to Hibbert. Perfect actually. I think he’ll be pretty good in New York and make Nelly look like the ass he is for not playing this kid.
by infinityzero.systemerror on Jul 23, 2010 7:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Kahn just got fined by the NBA for inappropriate comments.
“He’s a very young and immature kid who smoked too much marijuana and has told me that he’s not smoking anymore,” Kahn said in the interview, “and I told him that I would trust him as long as that was the case.”
by infinityzero.systemerror on Jul 23, 2010 9:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Worst in Pacer History!!!
Worst in the league now? Nope, Kahn takes that prize. But Larry Bird is DEFINITELY the worst GM the Pacers have ever had!
And JOB is DEFINITELY the worst coach!!!
by FortWayneKarl on Jul 23, 2010 12:42 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Ummm, no.
Didn’t the Pacers pretty much suck for like 20 years after they came to the NBA. I would say someone in there would be the worse in the Pacer History.
by infinityzero.systemerror on Jul 23, 2010 5:57 PM EDT up reply actions
You haters all want a quick fix
bottom line is it doesn’t work like that for a small market team. everybody quit being short sided and look at the broad picture here. took over for a team with not a lot of money to spend… bad character guys and completely started from scratch with what he could do!
i’m sure if i asked the question on what you guys would have done back when he took over that there would be some GREAT ideas… but those ideas won’t work if you dont’ have the money.
his one flaw is JOB: huge agreement on that but again there was no other coach that wanted to take over what they had to take over!!! so ya terrible coach but there are no other options.
If anyone even says bird is worse then Kahn, you don’t know much about basketball. with what he was allowed to work with he did fairly good. not the best but certainly not the worst.
Is Bird turning this team around? Yes. Was it painful? Of course it was, but dont brand labels on Larry after three years of him making his own decision. People say Donnie is one of the best and HE made th moves to get Murphy and Dunleavy. We had to get rid of Jermaine and Ike Diogu or you guys wouldve been bitching about how we never got rid of em. I wouldve done the Portland trade too. For some reason, guys on here think Jerryd Bayless is an all-star…. not sure why, he’s blown.
The fallacy is that it's someone elses fault
People here are too quick to blame Walsh for Birds mistakes. LB got here in 2003. Yet every bad move somehow falls on Donnie Walsh. Bird sure seems to get the praise for any positives over the last 7 years.
Who has the track record of success?
I think it’s laughable that somehow Donnie Walsh overstepped Larry Birds “genius”.
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "
by aaronb on Jul 23, 2010 2:05 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
how do you really know?
you’ve been saying this forever now but how do you really know. based on NORMAL business works the ultimate decision maker has the final say. Walsh was the decision maker so it falls on him. if bird was making the decsions then why wasn’t he pres of basketball opps?? it doesn’t make sense.
Ignore aaronb. He might be the writer of that article :\
It was Walsh’s decisions.
Bird has had 2, maybe 3 years tops of clean GM responsibilities. He’s been OK so far. Not spectacular (depending on this draft), not terrible (depending on this draft).
The writer of that article is obviously very smart
He made his case and used examples to back up his reasoning.
You should try that sometime PJ.
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "
Sorry
But this guy has been posting stuff like this behind me for weeks.
If he doesn’t agree with my position. Then he needs to site how I am mistaken. Tell me why Bird is good at his job.
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "
I don't agree either.
But that’s cool. Opinions are everyones god given right. We aren’t exactly a prime destination for free agents…unless they’re into corn and cold winters. Chances are were gonna hafta get that 2nd and 3rd high level player through the draft (hopefully Lance or Paul), or hope that a prized free agent falls to us somehow after other prized free agents sign with the glamour teams…or, Danny could work overtime at USA basketball to make a couple pals who might entertain the idea of coming here. It’s a crazy idea, but in today’s “buddy system” NBA, who knows?
Confucious say "He who dives for loose balls need proper fitting athletic cup!"
Nobody outside of the Pacers FO really knows
I just find it really hard to believe that Bird stood down while Donnie Walsh made all these terrible short sighted moves. What competitive former athlete would put his “Name” on the line while someone else makes moves they don’t agree with?
Donnie Walsh built a semi-dynasty here in Indiana by making astute trades and picks. He literally has a 15+ year track record of excellent success. HE JUST REBUILT THE KNICKS FROM SALARY CAP HELL IN 2 FREAKING YEARS!!!!!
Yet Larry Bird was somehow not to blame for the Pacers current situation?
My gut is that Donnie Walsh left because he didn’t agree with the moves that Bird was making. Donnie realized how far away this roster was, and wanted to rebuild.
Bird was the guy who proclaimed “I didn’t sign on to rebuild anything”.
Walsh rebuilt this roster several times and kept us in contention. What has Bird ever done to show any faith in his decision making or talent evaluation skills?
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "
best question in this whole blog
lets also talk alittle bit about how everybody loves and misses reggie…. took him 7 years to make the playoffs.
but people would like to tell you times have changed, things are different now. i agree, but haven’t really changed much for the Pacers and their owner. he’s clearly not willing to pay over cap to make a quick fix like alot of other owners. this is still a small market team and to me the process to build is still the same. it takes time people
Bird has been terrible about looking at the big picture
The big picture was to tear down and rebuild in 2005. What about signing Earl Watson and Danthay Jones screams “Big Picture”?
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "
No way is Bird the worst.
Of course Kahn comes to mind right away. But Walsh is screwing things up in NY. Walsh lost his touch as a GM after assembling our Reggie, Jackson, Smits, Mckey, Davis team. He pulled off some trades to transition the team, but he brought in talent at the expense of character….Bird was a polarizing player, I think that comes into play now when the media is trashing the guy. Wait till the start of next year, then we’ll judge.
Confucious say "He who dives for loose balls need proper fitting athletic cup!"
No gm is perfect
Larry has done his job. if he is the one people want to blame for the golden state trade well then credit him for cleaning up the team. Credit him from getting rid of j.o. who was becoming a cancer. Don’t blame him for j.o.b when he was the only person he could get to take the job. You can say he missed on rush but he hit with roy. The shawnee williams draft was disaster but the year before he struck with danny and it wasn’t a no brainer because gerald green was ranked higher as a prospect. It’s all good to see things in hindsight but all of the pgs taken after tyler were considered reaches except for jrue holliday. He’s not perfect but larry could be a lot worse. He’s far from the worst.
by Cali Davi on Jul 23, 2010 2:49 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Larry sucks
The fact that he is still running the show makes me believe this ownership group was more focused on $ and whether it would be more advantageous to move the team or keep them in Indy, instead of what was happening on the court. With that said, now that we know they are staying for a few years means there will be a focus on the product on the court, which step one would be firing Larry.
Pacers' Scouting Director is Ryan Carr not David
Come on people, I need some editing help with these pre-coffee morning posts!
He isn’t the worst. Probably in the bottom third of the league but not the worst. I don’t like him at all, mostly for the JOB signing and hansbrough pick. Somehow he gets all the blame goes to him post brawl even though all statements point to walsh taking back control.
The O’neal trade worked out ok, and would workout a lot better if job wasn’t the coach. In hindsight the rush trade is a wash bc they both suck, even though I would prefer bayless in our system. His second round picks are promiasing which is all u can hope for in the second round.
hell… joe dumars sucks more than bird. I mean shoot… he has ruined that team for years with his sighnings
by dbcb on Jul 23, 2010 3:56 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
He has to lose points for not picking a direction
The biggest part of a GM’s job is to see the big picture. He has to ask himself “is this team a contender?”. If the answer is NO than he needs to ask “How close am I away?”.
If the team isn’t close to being a contender, you have to sell off the assets and do a full on rebuild.
That is the true failure of Bird that some people aren’t grasping.
It’s not the Rush over Bayless or Hansboro over Holliday so much as the fact we are picking 10-13 every single year.
A real GM would have realized we were far away and turned Sjax,Al Harrington,Tinsley,Artest,JO, Jeff Foster,etc. into young players and future draft picks.
Bird just stayed the course on a road to nowhere.
Not only has it been ill advised from the start. Its been gutless and extremely destructive to the health of the franchise.
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "
I kind agree with you on the point that Bird is very stubborn for staying the course instead of realizing that this team needed to turn veteran players for young players/picks and build through the draft. It’s turning his 3 year plan into a much longer one.
I’m still giving Bird till the start of next season. Let’s see what he does when this team has cap space for the first time. It’ll be pretty tough when next season’s free agents look pretty lackluster. Maybe he’ll be able to trade at least one of those expiring contracts for future picks.
What we know, best guesses, and what we don't know
We know:
Walsh hired Zeke, Bird fired him. Walsh gave Tinsley the long-term deal
we are not yet free of. Walsh decided to let Brad Miller go and keep JO at
twice the price (we can only condemn this with the benefit of hindsight).
Best guesses:
Both Bird and Walsh seemed to approve the hiring of Stephen Jackson.
After the brawl, reporters came to the conclusion that Walsh re-took the
responsibility for trades, leaving Bird still in charge of drafting. It appears
that Bird bears the responsibility for Shawne Williams and James White;
it appears that Walsh bears the responsibility for Artest-Peja and the big
trade with Golden State. BUT NO ONE REALLY KNOWS FOR SURE.
What we don’t know:
Whether the drafting of Tyler Hansbrough was a great move, a good move,
or a bad move. This one thing might ultimately tip the balance, as far as
Bird’s legacy is concerned.
How this year’s draftees will turn out.
What went on behind the scenes that led to the departures of Sam Perkins
and Mel Daniels.
What the contracts of Murphy and Dunleavy will turn into for the Pacers.
My vote? “The jury’s still out.” I continue to keep an open mind about all this.
Patience is required, given what Artest, Jackson, and Tinsley did to this
franchise. The final chapters have not been written.
Hey I mean Chris Wallace turned into a mediocre GM
I think things could turn for Larry, but also do not forget drafting Rush, a bad, and Hibbert, a good.
Kahn!!!
Just when you thought he could get no worse he gets fined because he said beasley smoked too much pot when he was younger when he introduced him today to the press. what a glowing endorsement. I maintain larry could be a lot worse.
by Cali Davi on Jul 23, 2010 4:43 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Well...
How about Chris Paul? Kinda hurts that the Pacer’s weren’t even mentioned among the interested parties. Although, that’s probably a result of him saying, “No non-contenders or Pacers.”
by infinityzero.systemerror on Jul 23, 2010 6:01 PM EDT reply actions
I think the Pacers could be a top 5 team in the east with Paul
If somehow they could trade Murph or Ford for Paul it would make the lineup very young and maybe not be very good till about 30 games into the season but once they got going they could be pretty good with a lineup of
paul/Stephenson/price
Rush/George
Granger/Dun
hans/Rolle/Mcbob
Hib/Foster
but who am i kidding no matter who they are playing as long as JOB is the coach the pacers will never ever be in anything. His style is way to gimmicky if thats a word. hes terrible
Yeah, he's terrible...
Until March, when wins mean nothing.
by infinityzero.systemerror on Jul 23, 2010 7:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Another Star
What Indiana is missing is another star…when i say star i dont mean..“LEBRONISM”(sorry couldnt resist)..but someone who is willing to rebuild what the Pacers were when they had Reggie. They need a better PG…i think Hibbert can grow as the 3rd “star” for the Pacers.
Well...
Hopefully, George or Stephenson can be that second star. They have the physical tools, its just a matter of putting them together at this level and being aggressive. If George can hit big shots like he did in Summer League, then he could have a good chance at it. Stephenson could be like Tyreke Evans, if he succeed at the point.
by infinityzero.systemerror on Jul 23, 2010 7:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Maybe we could get in on a NYK/NO deal involving Paul
NYK has stated no one, other than Amar’e is off limits. They could use more expiring deals in NYK and maybe we could steal some of their talented youth like Danilo or Randolph.
How old is West?
For some reason it feels like he’s been around forever. I would like Randolph, not so sold on Danilo.
by infinityzero.systemerror on Jul 23, 2010 8:09 PM EDT up reply actions
West has got to be around 28 or 29 but only has two years left on his deal.
I think he would be a good addition.
I’m big on both Danilo and Randolph, but given the choice I would target Randolph.
I see what you're saying.
Taking West on would be a pretty good deal for us. He should be going into his prime and we’ll have him for those big years before he starts declining. I like it, but I’d like Randolph more.
by infinityzero.systemerror on Jul 23, 2010 8:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Unless they send him off in the trade.
Although, I think that would defeat the purpose of the trade. The idea is to get cap space right? I would like Jameer Nelson, I think he is undervalued in the NBA. By far, my favorite PG in the NBA at this point in time is Deron Williams, he just offers it all.
by infinityzero.systemerror on Jul 23, 2010 9:09 PM EDT up reply actions
This CP3 Situation Pisses Me Off
Maybe more so than the LeBron drama.
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=aw-paulfuture072310
How does Lebron factor into the Chris Paul thing.
I don’t like Lebron, but you can’t blame him for this. I don’t like this article at all. I understand the whole wanting loyalty thing, but it seems like the owner isn’t keeping us his end of the bargain, so I’m not gonna blame Paul for wanting out.
by infinityzero.systemerror on Jul 23, 2010 8:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Agreed
However, I really do not like WWW and the scheming that is happening in the NBA. Its always been there but its at a new level now.
Mark Cuban said it.
Player Collusion, I don’t like it.
by infinityzero.systemerror on Jul 23, 2010 9:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Hollinger is claiming our expiring deals aren't worth crap
as long as teams like Cleveland and Toronto are sitting on massive trade exceptions and several other teams (Nets, Kings, Wolves, etc.) are well under the cap.
God, I hate Hollinger.
He looks smug. Still, this isn’t what I wanted to hear… guess we might just be holding these guys until they expire. I think we could trade Murphy to a contender still. Ford is 50/50, he’s a good player that is stuck in an unfavorable system, although the injuries hurt his value tons. Mike Jr. is probably unmovable. Bummer.
by infinityzero.systemerror on Jul 23, 2010 9:14 PM EDT up reply actions
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