Free Agent Point Guards Plucked from Trees: More Practice of Patience Over Haste
by Nathan S. on Jul 11, 2010 7:06 PM EDT
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PrintA free agency season that has suddenly caused a lot of headaches for just about every team in the league is beginning to see a trickle down effect to the Indiana Pacers. Not only were the Pacers going to be bit players in the free agency market anyway, but when everyone strikes out thanks to the player collusion of the Bro Alliance, suddenly, the pickings become slimmer.
Raymond Felton, one of the few possibilities to solve the Pacers glaring point guard issue was signed by the scrambling Knicks for a sum much higher than the Pacers could (or should) pay for Felton’s services. Jordan Farmar, another popular target, is on his way to signing with the Nets (thanks, Jalen and Ric Bucher). Larry Bird and David Morway plan to see how it all shakes out with players to help solve their PG issue, but they’re also on their way to giving them no options for the point guard position.
Though the free agent season is technically still young, with all the names committing, it feels like it’s gone for long enough that the Pacers should be concerned about falling behind in the arms race. But the Pacers remain hostages of their contract situation, and though the light is at the end of the tunnel, it’s always darkest just before the dawn. It doesn’t really matter what potent quotable you use to describe the Pacers situation, the fact is, the long term usage of these expiring deals remains more important than the short term importance of landing a stopgap point guard through free agency or trades.
Of course, holding onto the expiring deals to spend that money next summer is a bad idea, but likewise, so is trading these expiring deals for low return right now. It’s difficult to be okay with the patience and lack of movement, but I don’t see a lot of benefit in being hasty and destroying a long term fix. It’s not like management is truly okay with leading the year with T.J. Ford, but maybe a contract year Ford, looking to get out of Indiana this season, could jumpstart his trade value in time for the deadline.
Well, maybe it’s a bit delusional, but can you imagine strapping yourself with Felton for $8 million a year? What about tying yourself to Farmar for three years? The Pacers may be losing the arms race from a results standpoint, but they’re also not being foolish with assets they don’t have and though frustrating, it’s currently advisable from a long term perspective.
Obviously, there is still plenty of time for Bird and Morway to get offseason results for the upcoming season, but we should leave the pitchforks and torches at home if we fail to see the offseason results. This season will not be judged solely with on the floor results anyway. The best results the team can hope for this season regardless of who they acquire in free agency is a first round series vs. the Magic or the Unholy Trinity.
I wouldn’t mind seeing the Pacers in the playoffs, but I also don’t think a four game series against the best the East has to offer will be worth ill advised contracts to average players. It’s a front office season, and that doesn’t end until February. A lot of fans were pleased with the draft, and even though this team right now is not better than last year’s team, the front office seems focused on the long term, and if the long term nets the team some return for our expiring contracts, draft picks, and gets our youth some valuable experience, another 50-loss season and a lottery pick wouldn’t be the worst thing.
But if I have to hear Bird tell me "nothing good came along" after the deadline, I’ll go ahead and start planning that uprising.
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Hope there aren't any injuries
Because then those expiring contracts could lose some leverage at the deadline.
by infinityzero.systemerror on Jul 11, 2010 7:19 PM EDT reply actions
Looking around
I’m not sure there are any good fits for our expiring deals. I mean, there probably will be at the deadline when teams realize they’re not going to the playoffs. But it’s kind of depressing already knowing that, yet not knowing if there is going to be any personnel improvement before next summer. At this point I’d say swing for the fences at deadline time (like try to trade for Baron Davis and Al Jefferson) to at least make an effort to improve dramatically (however doomed it may be). Or, just wait for next season and try to sign Indiana boys like Conley and Landry. What I can’t handle is trading now for bad contract guys like Jose Calderon and Emeka Okafor simply because we’re eager to get something for our expirings.
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Yeah.
I really don’t want any of those players, but definitely not Calderon and Okafor, he’s got to be on the dumbest 1 overall picks. I suppose I’d be ok with the Indiana guys, simply because they have shown some ability. Given that Tyler H. may nvr make the court, as it seems, having Landry would be mighty nice. And Conley fills an obvious void.
by infinityzero.systemerror on Jul 11, 2010 8:51 PM EDT up reply actions
For once I am fully behind the F.O.
There’s no need to overpay for Felton. He’s just not that good. And Jordan Farmar apparently doesn’t care all that much about starting, otherwise why would he sign with the Nets when they have Devin Harris? What’s the point of a first-round matchup with the Heat or Magic? We don’t need a playoff berth just yet – nor the middle-of-the-pack draft pick that would come with it. I’m quite happy to go with a contract year Ford and Stephenson till AJ Price comes around. Then give AJ the keys and give TJ Ford garbage time minutes, so he can pad his stats, and increase his trade value. That will give us (hopefully) a top 5 pick in the draft(hopefully a cornerstone of the franchise), let us know if AJ is/is not the answer at PG and get value for TJ Ford and his expiring. As opposed a borderline lottery pick that doesn’t help in rebuilding, and Cleveland’s well wishes as we get out ass kicked by the Heat if we make the playoffs.
AND....
Hopefully get Bird and JOB fired!
by FortWayneKarl on Jul 11, 2010 9:43 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Yes of course
Playoffs mean a JOB extension. A crap year means no more JOB. Now who wants the playoffs again?
I want the playoffs.
I would be thrilled if this team succeeded in spite of it’s coach. I’m tired of watching this team struggle and die each night, I want to watch a winner. I want to cheer for this team again. I want to win.
by infinityzero.systemerror on Jul 11, 2010 11:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Well that's naive and short-sighted
If the Pacers were going to succeed despite JOB they would have done it by now. There is no way not in a million years that JOB will lead us to the promised land. I doubt JOB could lead even the Lakers to the promised land. Everyone here wants the Pacers to win. Hell I’d like to go 82-0, and sweep every playoff series, but if we win now we set this franchise and the rebuilding back a few years. If we continue to suck just for a year or two (and dump JOB), we can build a strong core, and rise from the ashes to become a formidable championship contender. If we make the playoffs we’ll be a borderline playoff team/perpetual 7th or 8th seed in the East.
We have a strong core now.
It’s not naive to want to win. I’m not short sighted. I think we have a great young core with some veteran talent. You seem stuck on the idea that if we make the playoffs we keep JOB. I’ll say it now, unless we are a 4 or better he doesn’t stick around. Unless we win 50+ games, there is no way he stays (unless the CBA causes issues). We have great wings, a good center, and I think our PF is better than people think. I’m gonna believe in Tyler, he was good when he played early on, as long as he gets on the court. TJ Ford is a good basketball player, but this system kills him. I don’t feel Bird is an idiot like many ppl, I actually think he’s done what he has said he would do. Also, OKC didn’t rise from the ashes either, they were a 8 seed. You have to start somewhere and if we make the playoffs now, it would give the team valuable experience and confidence in the next season. I believe in winning and the idea of wanting a loser is stupid, I want nothing to do with that word. Regardless of who is coaching I will always want a winner.
by infinityzero.systemerror on Jul 12, 2010 4:20 AM EDT up reply actions
Wait a minute...I think we both want a winner
When did I say I want a loser? I don’t. I want a winner too. But let me be a little more precise. I want to win a championship. If we go 30-52 or 52-30, and fail to win a championship, it amounts to the same thing: at the end of the day we’re still losers, only thing is the first record comes with a better draft pick. There’s only one championship: the team that wins the Finals. Everyone else from the Celtics to the Nets are all losers. What do people remember about the 03-04 season? That the Pistons won it all, or that we had 60+ wins? If 52-30 makes you happier than 30-52 then great, but without a championship it doesn’t mean anything. Ask Brady and Belichick and the rest of the 18-1 Patriots. And the fact is our core is not ready to win a championship. We do not have a great young core. Our ‘great young core’ is essentially the same except for the rooks, and last year that core gave us 32-50, and 4th in the Central(it would have been much worse if we didn’t win all those games at the end). And despite our crap record, and being 4th in the Central we didn’t fire JOB. You think we’ll fire him if we make the playoffs? As for Tyler in the limited time he had, he wasn’t even in the to 10 rookies of his draft class, and I wouldn’t consider him as part of a core of a championship-contending team. Hopefully he proves me wrong though.
Great wings? What great wings? Apart from DG33, we have B. Rush who floats through games, Dunleavy whose always hurt, Dahntay who doesn’t get playing time coz he can’t shoot the 3, and 2 raw rookies with some promise. Let’s be honest here: our core consists of one second-tier star, one good, developing center and a few promising rookies. That’s not championship material. OKC were only an 8th seed this year – they sucked for a long time(and yes they did rise from the ashes). Let’s review their brief history for a second. In their inagural season, they traded Ray Allen for the 5th pick, and took Durant with the 2nd and Jeff Green with the 5th. They went 20-62 their first year, giving them the 4th pick next draft. With that they took Russell Westbrook. They improved slightly but were crap enough to get the 3rd pick, and with that they took James Harden. Then (with a core of Durant, Westbrook, Harden and Green) did they barely get the 8th spot in the playoffs. The Thunder had 4 high-picks before they made the playoffs. We’ve only got one high pick, and you wanna shoot for the playoffs already? Ok, let’s assume we make the playoffs, and we get the experience and confidence. Then what? We get blown out by the Heat and have to settle for a borderline lottery pick, which will be nothing more than a role player. The next season we make the playoffs again as a 7th/8th team(because our draft pick doesn’t really help us get better), and despite our experience we’ll get blown out by the Heat again. And this will happen again and again. Meanwhile, the teams that have sucked and have got high picks and built a good core, will overtake us, and we will fall back into the situation we are in now. Sam Presti wrote the blueprint on how to build a championship contender in a small-market team that can’t attract marque free-agents(OK City is no Miami). If we follow that blueprint we will go 30-52 for a few years instead of 52-30, but when it’s all said and done, we will be able to challenge the big boys for a championship, and be real winners rather than posting records that no one will remember in a few years time, with nothing to show for it.
I'm with Infinity on this
i will begin by saying your right about the Thunder but where I like what infinity has to say is winning and going to the playoffs (even if its an 8th) now is best for this young group. it builds confidence. the last thing this team needs is more losing. don’t get me wrong, i know they will lose games but preparing to win is WAAAYYYY better than preparing to lose, in my book anyway.
we do have a solid young core. think what we’re saying, solid young core does not mean superstars and does not mean winning 50 games a year. the way the East is set up now with with Bron and Bosh in Miami.. i would be surprised if a team with a 41-41 record couln’t make the playoffs. and that solid young core we keep talking about won 12 of the last 15 games last year meaning they can still win. and as much as everyone wants to say that it was cause JOB didn’t want to lose his job.. you can’t believe that. Here is why… everybody was sayng all season that “JOB has lost the players respect” – if they lost the players respect then why did they keep fighting toward the end of the season?? i’d say if they lost respect they would say f it and just make vacation preparations (which i’m sure they were still doing). But they didn’t quite, they played hard and won. now we add Tyler (toughness – and he proved early that he can play). you add George (athletic, long armed wing), you add some more core to make us just a little bit better. dont’ forget about how we ended the season.
on top of that you have to look at what Bird said he would do. 1. get rid of the thugs (check), 2. build a solid young core (check and continually checking). and before i get to three let me say that you have to give these young guys time to develop. everybody gets all hopped up cause they aren’t great right off the bat… they are core players not superstars keep that in mind. 3. us assets to get another superstar. i’m glad bird is being patient with this because so many GM’s aren’t. He’s waiting to hear more about the CBA issues before he spends all the money because i’m guessing since the NBA’s structure is all messed up it will be changed. Rather spend less money laterj, especially when you can get the same value.
as the true fans we need to believe in this team no matter what!
I don't see AJ as a starter
Not sure where people get the idea he should be a starting point guard for us. He can score, sure, but he hasn’t shown much ability dishing the ball. I find a passer more important in a point guard than a scorer. Good backup and spot starter, but not much else to me.
by infinityzero.systemerror on Jul 11, 2010 10:59 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm not saying he is a starter...
But let’s give him the keys and the chance to prove himself. You can’t throw the guy on the scrap heap based on last year’s limited minutes.
Being the second guy off the bench is hardly a scrap heap.
Ford’s better than he is given credit for. He can pass and he can score, he just struggles in JOB’s system. Which, by the way, is the worst system in the NBA. I get the feeling him and Nelly (GS coach) just love each other. Price shouldn’t be a starter for any NBA team, short of the Lakers. He would actually fit that position well in that system.
by infinityzero.systemerror on Jul 11, 2010 11:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Already making excuses
Why do people keep sticking up for Bird? So far he hasnt done anything to improve the team. I see him on tv watching games or supposedly evaluating talent and he always has his arms crossed in a near sleep. He wasted his draft pick on a player whose position we already have filled. Now were trying to make a rookie shooting guard into a point guard. Does any of this really make Basketball sense? What ever happened to drafting a point guard? We are hearing the same old things we have heard in the past from Bird. What happened to what Bird said a month ago when now is the time to start winning. Enough patience for Bird, its time to move on. It’s not about making moves of haste but making logical moves which would actually help the team. I just dont see it. Same old story of wait till next year.
by Slick4President on Jul 11, 2010 9:43 PM EDT reply actions
So you’d rather them not even try to see if Lance can play 1? Or reach for a PG rather than take best available talent?
Bird is doing fine. Initial reactions are that he drafted VERY well. Not just from Pacers fans.
Try to be a little objective.
Bump
I think he is better than people give him credit for. He just chose a poor coach. If Hanny can come back healed, he should make ppl reconsider calling him a worthless pick.
by infinityzero.systemerror on Jul 11, 2010 11:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Pay attention...
After watching the three newest Pacers play in summer league, lots of experts (people who follow basketball as a career) are saying Bird may end up having scored 3 starters/rotation guys. While he didn’t take the best player(s) in the draft, adding three legitimate guys to any NBA roster in one draft without them being a ‘bust’ or bad fit is pretty impressive. As of now, all three can contribute to the Pacers immediately.
There were hardly better option than Paul George when the Pacers were on the clock. The worst thing a franchise can do is reach for a need. With George, the Pacers get a multi-tooled asset. He showed he can score, rebound, and play defense (leading the summer league team in points, rebounds, and steals). Lance Stephenson can straight-up ball. He proved that on a consistent basis. The NBA Magnum Rolle provides hustle, energy, and a willingness to play a role (see Joakim Noah), which is vital to a championship caliber team (which the Pacers aren’t, yet).
Now, it’s early. The newest Pacers have not even played a single NBA game yet. But, summer league takes place every year and rookies go through the same process every year. These guys Bird drafted are ahead of the curve in several aspects. It’s absolutely clear they can play at this level. It’s now on their shoulders to become great players. If they don’t pan out, you cannot blame Bird (although many will try).
The FAULK
by incredibleFAULK on Jul 12, 2010 8:04 AM EDT up reply actions
Farmar
I wouldn’t mind having Farmar for 3 years, $11 mil like what the Nets are offering. I think that’s a fair price. I have to imagine that if we made a similar offer, he would come here instead given is stated desire to start. It could also indicate that Devin Harris isn’t long for New Jersey. If Farmar goes to the Nets, it may be time to start the Harris trade talks again.
There are not many good options right now.
Point guards right now don’t look good period. Who is left worth considering? Let’s see if Stephensen develops. He’s got some signs of promise.
by Mark McClenning on Jul 11, 2010 10:22 PM EDT reply actions
Full agreement
I’m glad there’s a few like minded folks on IC. No moves for the sake of making moves.
I think it is time for an AJ Price update though. Even if it’s nothing but “recovery’s going as planned.” I’d feel a lot more comfortable if TJ weren’t the only real healthy PG on the roster.
Hey, 3 year plan y'know
Possible Reasons for No Player Movement
- Either the Pacer Organization has not been agressive enough to go after available players or indecisive. or
- Maybe Larry Bird is being black-balled by the other teams and not being given the opportunity to complete deals. As a player, players from other teams did not care for Bird and therefore as President of the Pacers, it may be payback time.
- Perhaps free agent players are waiting to see if how the teams negotiating turns out before making a move.
I understand the idea of trying to hold until next summer for our cap space to be free, but who will be available next summer. I say we find a balance and actively pursue changes now with pieces that can be more long term. Example: 1st choice- pursue a trade with New Orleans for Collison and Okafor for some our expiring contracts.
by Longtime Pacer Fan on Jul 12, 2010 8:15 AM EDT reply actions
negative nancies
Patience, young padawans. We just had a killer draft, personnel movement is difficult. The Pacers won’t be able to trade the expiring deals until the deadline most likely, so enjoy finally having a nice core of young players to watch develop. Lance, Hibbs, Paul, Magnum, Tyler… should be fun.
I’m much more intrigued at the idea of Lance developing into a bruising PG instead of picking up someone like Luke Ridnour… If worse comes to worst and Lance can’t handle it, let TJ play and get his stats up, trade his ass at the deadline for some actual value.
Shaun Livingston
And tell TJ we believe he can play and do some good things, while letting him have a good year in his last of his contract. Then cut McBob. I’d also be interested in moving Dahtay, and Solo for little of consequence. I’d also see what could be added for Rush in a trade.
During the season, around deadline time, I would land as many draft picks as I could for our expiring deals, even if it means taking on unsavory deals.
If TJ Ford and Troy Murphy can show that they still have value we could get an exciting allotment of picks in exchange for their expiring contracts. Teams often undervalue next year’s first rounder, we’d be lucky to snag one in exchange for one of them. Or maybe one of them and Jones(either) or something. Rush is actually a above-average NBA defender and should be kept on the roster if his shooting and shot selection improves this year.
Besides that we need to let our young players get lots of minutes and experience this year because we don’t have a roster capable of competing for much of anything this year. I’m not sure if Indiana can be a big player in free agency next year with our roster so we may need to find a way to pick up top talent in the draft (obtain draft picks or assets tradeable for draft picks…)
by INDIANABANNER on Jul 12, 2010 9:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Felton out of reach
Tough break with Felton at the Knicks:
http://www.nba.com/knicks/video/2010/07/12/mediascrumsRaymondFeltonmov-1371583
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