Example of Larry Bird's leadership
by aaronb on Jun 24, 2010 5:00 PM EDT
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I've posted this elsewhere in a comment section. I just think it needs to be put here to better illustrate how Larry Bird's lack of vision has/is/will continue to kill this franchise.
Jeff Foster and Troy Murphy have been rumored in trades for 2 years straight.
Why are they still here?
In theory, we could have
1) Traded Foster to Denver for a 1st rounder and an expiring contract in 2009
2) Traded Murphy to Cleveland for a 1st rounder and an expiring contract
3) Used the saved cap room to get the 17 and Kirk Hinrich today
So by Larry not having the vision to deal those guys, He has cost us 3 First round picks and a starting PG
But at least he’s white, from Indiana, and was a good player in his day. So we have that.
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I dont agree with what you have wrote and to be honest I dont appreciate you racial comment either. My question is how do u know that all of those didnt happen because of Bird? Are you involved intthe negotiations? I for one would rather keep Foster and I dont think Hinrich is the long term answer. I do believe that keeping Murphy for something better or just letting his contract expire is better. The Pacers already have too many young palyers and need vets. Bird knows that he needs veteran leadership and not more pics. I think he wants to get a solid vet like Al Jefferson for Murphy than some young prospect in which you would have to wait to develope. the Draft is a crapshoot you never know what you going to get especially lower in the rounds and no one knows exactly what pick it would of been for Murphy or Foster…what Cleveland made it deep in the playoffs so it would of been a low pick anyway. Keep hating
I will keep hating
Until there is enough outrage for changes to be made. Maybe you like the scrappy overachievers type of squad?
I prefer a well run contender myself.
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "
lmao! Have fun with ALLLL that.
Confucious say "He who dives for loose balls need proper fitting athletic cup!"
Do you honestly think Bird held up the deal to Cleveland and that Cleveland didn’t choose the deal they wanted? Same with today’s Hinrich deal.
I always thought...
…the Murph to Cavs deal fell through because Larry was insisting on JJ Hickson, and the Cavs didn’t want to give up Hickson. I thought they were agreeable to giving up a 1st and Big Z, and then re-signing Z after the Pacers cut him
Agreed.
I actually like Murphy enough not to get the last pick in the 1st round and cap space. I wouldn’t have been mad about that deal, but Murphy should net more than that.
I bet Cleveland is wondering if they made a mistake. They have an extra year of Jamison and he shot under 30% from 3pt rangein the Cavs playoff loss. Hickson is not a centerpiece. I can see their reluctance to trade him, but I bet they’d have lost to LA if they had done the deal. And if the series had been close they’d have a better shot at keeping Lebron (they’d atleast have less future overhead).
But, I digress.
peac.e
I prefaced by saying in theory
However none of those deals are far fetched. From what I’ve read all three were on the table.
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "
We get it dude, you hate Bird.
Its really getting to the point where youre losing all credibility. You’re not enlightening all of us Pacers fans with your threads of hate. Give it a rest.
Confucious say "He who dives for loose balls need proper fitting athletic cup!"
Not a fan of Bird.
But, unless Walsh is to blame, my venom dates back way beyond your examples.
1. I thought we should’ve moved Tinsley and Artest after the 2003 season when they had maximum value. And kept Harrington
1b. We should’ve brought Artest back after the trade demand, then moved him for a worse player than Peja and a low 1st, high 2nd round pick.
2. We easily could’ve gotten about the value we’re expecting out of our 4 expiring deals for Jackson or Harrington. How far ahead in out new rebuilding mode would that have put us?
3. We never should’ve brought back Harrington and tried to go up-tempo…and kept Carlisle as the Coach….WTF!?!?!?!?!
4. Here’s where all your examples fit, along with benching Tinsley instead of telling him we’d find a trade if he could play well for a month. And we could have taken back a MUCH less talent, slightly smaller, but still overpaid contract and a 2009 or 2010 2nd round pick and be in a better situation.
5. Hansbrough will end up being an awful pick. The fact that it was at 13 and not 3 will keep it from being a historically bad pick (Sam Bowie), but it won’t work.
6. Continually expecting immediate value back from expiring deals, especially since he’s now hamstrung by not being able to take back “future contracts”. How are you going to get value out of expiring deals taking back expiring deals? Your not.
The strange thing. Aside from Hansbrough, I think Bird’s been an ok drafter. Very safe, but has gotten decent value where he picked…well, then there’s James White…and all those never see the western hemisphere Euros. Well, I’ll atleast say his draft picks have been palatable compaired to his trades and lack of trades.
peac.e
Good list
I was just attempting to illustrate how a lack of foresight has hindered us. Asking imediate impact returns in trades don’t help when you are rebuilding. Foster and Murphy are just 2 really easy examples.
Also using it as a counter to the “what could he have done picking in the middle of round 1” posts that I’ve seen this week.
Its the difference in being proactive and reactive.
I don’t dislike Bird the person. I’d just rather he was coach and not the Gm.
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "
It's all good. Were all entitled to our opinions.
Confucious say "He who dives for loose balls need proper fitting athletic cup!"
Wasnt James White like way low in the 1rst round, or even a 2nd round pick?
I cant really remember….Also, my impression was that Birds only drafts were last Rush, Hibbert, then Hansborough the next year. Before that I believe it was Walsh making the calls…part of the reason he left. Remember the “Franchise now only has one voice” press conferences? IDK, I’m not saying he’s all that and a bag of chips as a GM, I’m just saying it’s a tough job and I’m gonna give him the 3 year plan he declared 2 years ago. I understand others aren’t that patient in todays “microwave, I want it now society” but thats just me.
Confucious say "He who dives for loose balls need proper fitting athletic cup!"
That's the problem.
It’s not a lack of patience on our part as fans (atleast the ones who see the Sam Presti’s and Pritchards of the world).
It’s Bird and co. that feel they have to win now. That’s the problem. The worst thing that could happen right now is that we make the 7th or 8th seed and Bird can say his “3 year crap shoot” worked and then he gets extended. Of all the things that should or could happen this season, that’s the one I fear the most.
peac.e
While I don’t agree with everything you say, the win now attitude is what is keeping the Pacers in mediocrity instead of getting better like the Blazers did. Why is it taking longer for the Pacers to become better when the Blazers did it in about 3 or 4 years instead of 6+.
It’s because Bird dafts safe and can’t pull off a trade.
Wise master,
i think james White was a second rounder but he gave White a guaranteed contract which is not normal I think. and i also believe Bird was incharge of the drafting aspect when him and walsh were working together and Walsh handled the trades because he had a great relationship with other team and they really liked him. Birds not very popular with other GMs in the league from what ive read. So i think Bird was responsible for drafting granger but that was a no brainer..haha but I do agree with you its fine with me too
Remember aaronb,
you’re a consistent and typically decent poster on here, but creating threads like this doesn’t help your cause.
Remember “never argue with a fool, because they will bring you down to their level and then beat you with experience.”
That's pretty good.
Did you just call the Wise Master a fool? That’s not very nice.
J/K. I think this is one of those things where we are all really not that far from each other in our line of thinking. But, you make a statement, throw a few qualifiers in there, and then add some detail and there’s alot of disagreement that can come out of it.
I really don’t think Bird is a terrible talent evaluator (though I thought much more highly of him in that respect before the 2009 draft), he’s just not a versitile GM. He has one directive and one directive only, get players to improve the team now. That doesn’t work in the situation he’s been in. The fact that we’ve only declined slightly and/or remained the same with all the bad luck and questionable moves tells you, if he had a core of 3 or 4 guys that were absolute, unquestionable starters, he could possibly maintain a good franchise the way Walsh did. However, that’s not what we have, and that’s not what we need. I think Walsh would have maybe been just as bad at rebuilding (though the JO and Bender trades, injuries excluded may suggest otherwise).
None the less, we should’ve fired Bird when we dumped all the other garbage 2 or 3 years ago.
peac.e
He's a darn good coach
Is what really eats me up. I guess it was too much for him, but it just seems like he wants to be in bball but doesn’t want to do what he is good at. At the very least, I want to see him hire a better coach. We are costing us 5 wins with this guy at the helm, i truly believe that.
5 wins???
We are getting 5 more wins every season than we should with him at the helm.
Dunleavy, Murphy, Granger, guys who could coast through most games being the 2nd best player have to work really hard for a top 5 all-time guy like Bird (though I have like 7 or 8 guys ahead of Bird in my top 5).
He’d was and maybe still would be a great coach. I think he’s lazy. As a GM, I think he’s boring, ignorant, doesn’t really care to build and just wants to see how hard guys are willing to work for him…that’s fine, if you collect a bunch of picks and then collect a bunch more and go from there and keep the hardest workers out of your 3 or 4 1st round picks every year for 2 or 3 years.
But seeing who’s the hardest worker out of a bunch of bench players is more of a science experiment than a 3 year building plan.
Can I express how much I hate Bird anymore.
however, tonight’s picks don’t completely disgust me…I would’ve like to have seen lower picks, better players, but whatever…atleast we didn’t just reach for the most NBA ready player from a big school that would have trouble cracking the rotation on a good NBA team….or trade the 10th for a backup PG.
In fact, even though therer was a PG that I liked for the 40th pick available at 57…I’m kinda glead to see him not reach for need.
peac.e
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