Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: Ray Allen Fighting Age, Injury And His New Role

Sorry Guys, but TJ Ford Still Isn't Any Good


Let me start out with some praise. The Pacers are a LOT better than I thought they would be at this point in the season. Hibbert is playing great and there is still room for improvement with him so he is only going to be getting better. McRobert's is doing the little stuff we needed him to do. Granger's shot is back (don't be fooled by his lower PPG... he isn't shooting as much. As soon as he gets to the line some more his PER will shoot back up) and he is playing the best defense of his life. All the Pacers are actually trying to play defense and it is showing.

But one thing that is grinding my gears is the fact Collison isn't playing 35 minutes a night and isn't finishing games. He is the future at the position. Oh, and he is light years better than TJ Ford.

But people will scream "but TJ Ford is better this year! He is accepting his role off the bench! He has been a good back up point guard. You are just a hater!" Which is really weird because whenever I see him on the court I just wish Collison was playing more and Price got off the pine.

So after the jump, the cold hard facts about TJ Ford's "good" year.

Star-divide

We will start off with the easy, traditional stats. Even these aren't pretty.

In 21 minutes a game, Ford is averaging 5.5 PPG, 3.5 APG, 2 TO on 36% FG, 32% 3FG

There isn't anything positive going on there. This field goal percentage is the 2nd worst of any of our rotation players (only Posey is worse... why does he play over Tyler again?). He still can't shoot. Still doesn't pass well. And still turns the ball over (3 TO per 36 mins). Oh and he is also shooting 57% FT... exactly what we want for our point guard who closes games.

It only gets uglier when you go to more advanced stats.

7.5 PER, 40% TS, 39% eFG, 26.5 AST%, 21.2 TO%, 85 ORtg, 105 DRtg, -0.013 WS/48

Now I am no Levy who lives for this stuff but holy moly... that is UUUUGLY.

His PER is worst on the team (for funsies.. Posey's is 7.7.. why is he playing again?) which according the Hollinger is between "definitely renting" and "next stop: D league." Average is 15 by the way. Oh and Collisons is 16.8.

His turnover rate is worst on the team for people who actually play by a long shot. Collison's if 14.7 by the way. TS% and eFG% is worst on the team again.

One thing people love to say is we look good when he is on the court. And that he is trying to play defense. Unfortunately...the stats do not bear this out. His ORtg is downright atrocious and easily the worst on the team (Collisons is 105 by the way). His DRtg is middle of the pack for our team and the same as Collisons. So, when TJ Ford is on the court, we give up 105 points per 100 possessions while scoring 85. (Collisons is 105 and 105 by the way). Unless I am understanding that stat wrong (which is possible and someone will point out I am sure)... that ain't good. In fact its treadful.The win shares point this out... his is negative. The worst on the team once again and the only player on our team in the negatives.

 

EDIT: in fact I am reading it wrong. From Levy below... (thanks again for clarifying)

Those individual ratings don’t reflect how the team plays when Ford is on the court, but instead are his individual contributions. His Offensive Rating of 85 is how many points he personally produces per 100 possessions. When calculating this rating he gets credit for points he scores and a partial credit for assists he hands out. With his poor shooting and A/TO ratio it’s easy to see why his rating is so low. His Defensive Rating is calculated by the point contributions of his counterpart point guard. Basically it’s the individual offensive ratings of the players he plays against.

If you wan’t to look at how the team is playing with Ford on and off the court, you have to take a look at a site like Basketball Value or 82games.com. Basketball Value shows the Pacers have an Off. Rating of 104.34 with Ford on the floor and 106.89 off the floor. The numbers for Collison are basically the opposite. So the Pacers’ are about 2 and a half points better offensively with Collison on the floor as opposed to Ford. Both of those offensive ratings are pretty poor, but not nearly as bad as Ford’s individual offensive rating. He isn’t contributing much offensive when he is on the floor but the team as a whole isn’t that bad offensively when he’s out there.

The team’s defensive rating is 97.80 when he’s on the floor and 105.05 when he’s off the floor. The team’s defensive rating is 106.10 with Collison on the floor and 97.50 with him off the floor. The Pacers are basically an average defensive team with Collison and a great defensive team with Ford. Now as you can tell by his individual defensive rating Ford isn’t generating a ton of stops, opposing point guards are still scoring on him, but the overall team defense is waaaaaaaay better with him out there.

so I will give TJ credit that we are a better defensive team with him out there for whatever reason.

So this is your TJ Ford guys. The player who ends games at the PG spot for us. The worst player on the team by most statistical measures.

And what makes it worse is that we have a stud in the making playing less than 30 minutes a game (Collison) and another young guy who was killing it in the preseason and in his only game this year (Price). But JOB knows best and his rotations are just awesome....

Comment 19 comments  |  0 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

Comments

Display:

I agree the stats do not show Ford looking very good

The only thing I would point out is the Offensive and Defensive Ratings. I am assuming those are the individual Offensive and Defensive Ratings listed on the player pages at Basketball-Reference. If so, they are a little bit different then how they were explained here.

Those individual ratings don’t reflect how the team plays when Ford is on the court, but instead are his individual contributions. His Offensive Rating of 85 is how many points he personally produces per 100 possessions. When calculating this rating he gets credit for points he scores and a partial credit for assists he hands out. With his poor shooting and A/TO ratio it’s easy to see why his rating is so low. His Defensive Rating is calculated by the point contributions of his counterpart point guard. Basically it’s the individual offensive ratings of the players he plays against.

If you wan’t to look at how the team is playing with Ford on and off the court, you have to take a look at a site like Basketball Value or 82games.com. Basketball Value shows the Pacers have an Off. Rating of 104.34 with Ford on the floor and 106.89 off the floor. The numbers for Collison are basically the opposite. So the Pacers’ are about 2 and a half points better offensively with Collison on the floor as opposed to Ford. Both of those offensive ratings are pretty poor, but not nearly as bad as Ford’s individual offensive rating. He isn’t contributing much offensive when he is on the floor but the team as a whole isn’t that bad offensively when he’s out there.

The team’s defensive rating is 97.80 when he’s on the floor and 105.05 when he’s off the floor. The team’s defensive rating is 106.10 with Collison on the floor and 97.50 with him off the floor. The Pacers are basically an average defensive team with Collison and a great defensive team with Ford. Now as you can tell by his individual defensive rating Ford isn’t generating a ton of stops, opposing point guards are still scoring on him, but the overall team defense is waaaaaaaay better with him out there.

That being said I am not crazy with the way the minutes are being divied up. Collison needs to apply a lot more effort at the defensive end, he gives up so easily when screened and just lets himself get taken right out of the play. However he is a better offensive player than Ford and the team needs to have him out there as much as possible. Hopefully we can see some improvement from Collison and he can earn those minutes back from Ford.

There are really only two plays: Romeo and Juliet, and put the darn ball in the basket. ~Abe Lemons
Find me at IndyCornrows
and Hickory-High

by Ian Levy on Dec 2, 2010 8:00 AM EST reply actions  

Thanks for the clarification Levy

if you don’t mind im gonna copy paste some of that up there as it explains it much better than I do

by dbcb on Dec 2, 2010 8:43 AM EST up reply actions  

No problem

I hope the fact that I agree with you wasn’t lost in my response. I think Collison should be playing way more minutes but I understand that O’Brien is making the decision on sound analysis of the team’s defensive performance. Collison needs to use this as motivation to get better on the defensive end. It’s not like T.J. has been a stopper throughout his career. He is just as undersized as Collison but he has earned his way back onto the floor this season with renewed focus on defense. There is no reason Collison can’t or shouldn’t be able to do the same thing.

I have to say I have been concerned with Collison’s body language a little the past few games. I can’t remember all the specifics but I have seen Collison subbed out a few times and he just looks so discouraged as he walks to the bench. There was one in particular in Sacramento where he turned the ball over and then got pulled and looked so frustrated at the short leash he is on. I think it is effecting his game somewhat and it’s definitely something I’m concerned about getting worse.

There are really only two plays: Romeo and Juliet, and put the darn ball in the basket. ~Abe Lemons
Find me at IndyCornrows
and Hickory-High

by Ian Levy on Dec 2, 2010 9:10 AM EST up reply actions  

Frustrates me more than it frustrates him LOL

IDK why JOB has such a short leash with younger guys but not the same leash when the vets make a mistake. Seems odd.

by dbcb on Dec 2, 2010 10:10 AM EST up reply actions  

This is what JOB does to point guards. He’s ruined the relationship with every one of them he’s coached in the NBA. Get ready for Collison to start looking for the exit if JOB gets a renewal.

by ThirtyOne on Dec 2, 2010 11:03 AM EST up reply actions  

Exactly

I could really careless about TJ Ford. The guy will be gone after the year or maybe even before then. What does concern me is Collison’s level of play. He is not proving to be the long term solution at the Point with this defensive effort.

by kennythered on Dec 3, 2010 2:37 PM EST up reply actions  

WHAAAAAAT?

Well who would suit your tastes?

by daledavis on Dec 3, 2010 4:15 PM EST up reply actions  

I actually agree with Kenny.

He may not be the answer if he keeps getting manhandled on defense. I’ll give him some time in the system before I write him off, just as I did with Ford. Hope for the best. Prepare for the Worst.

by infinityzero.systemerror on Dec 4, 2010 2:16 AM EST up reply actions  

thats one of the biggest reasons I don’t want JOB around next year (or hell this year). he can’t teach point guards. They get worse when he is around. it is infuriating… collison is too damn talented to be worse than last year when he had to carry that team

by dbcb on Dec 4, 2010 7:52 AM EST up reply actions  

That's true.

This isn’t really relevant to the conversation, but isn’t it interesting how so many former players who are now coaches were PG.

by infinityzero.systemerror on Dec 4, 2010 3:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Found it interesting the JOB went with Collison more in the past two games, including Sacramento (last night doesn’t really count) after TJ closed out the win nicely in L.A. Ford is so inconsistent even within a game that maybe JOB will start going with the guy playing better on the particular night.

by Tom Lewis on Dec 2, 2010 8:38 AM EST reply actions  

DBCB

Your such a Negative Nancy Today Dude. . . From where I’m sitting the glass is more that half full. . .

by daledavis on Dec 2, 2010 9:30 AM EST reply actions  

TJ Ford Sucks. . .

Now tell me how we can get Chris Paul to start and Derron Williams to back him up . . . I think thats the only way you’ll be happy . . . I think its like a prisoner that is getting ready to get parrolled and he is afraid of leaving. Maybe you have been in Pacersucksville for so long that now your in Pacerdenial and you can’t believe we may actally have a good team. Have you ever heard of playing the cards your dealt.

So here it is in Math Terms:

TJ Ford does not equal “Best Point Guard in the League”
TJ Ford = “The 2nd Best Point Guard on our Current Roster”

by daledavis on Dec 2, 2010 9:37 AM EST reply actions  

Chill Out...

I am not looking for Paul and Williams. What I want is already on the roster I just want more of it…

Collison.

I want him playing 32+ minutes a night. And I want him finishing games. TJ Ford should not be taking minutes away from him.

and I don’t know if Ford IS our 2nd best pg on the roster. When he gets hurt (he will, he always does) I guess we will see if he is when price gets to play. Price can flat out score… I just don’t know about his defense.

I never mentioned that we don’t have a good team. This team should make the playoffs unless Hibbert or Granger get hurt for an extended periord of time. Don’t put words in my mouth and don’t come at me with weak ass arguments that don’t amount to anything but “blah blah blah ur mean!”

by dbcb on Dec 2, 2010 9:46 AM EST up reply actions  

I want Collison playing more and finishing games as well

But I don’t think the Pacers would be 9-8 with Collison playing those minutes and finishing games. I want him to get that playing time but I also want him to be more effective than he has been when he’s on the floor. Some of that might be tied to a lack of confidence because he’s not getting the playing time, but the team has been GREAT defensively with Ford on the floor. That’s one of the big reasons we are winning games.

There are really only two plays: Romeo and Juliet, and put the darn ball in the basket. ~Abe Lemons
Find me at IndyCornrows
and Hickory-High

by Ian Levy on Dec 2, 2010 10:08 AM EST up reply actions  

Collison should always be finishing games. but TJ has a role on the roster. However much I dislike his game.

The bottom line is the Pacer’s record speaks the truth. He is on the team and we are winning. It’s pointless to make any trades or changes at this point. The better our record is at the end of the year, the more like a free agent will sign with the team.

by Drakul on Dec 2, 2010 10:41 AM EST reply actions  

Ford could start on a few teams. The Bobcats, The Pistons (Stuckey’s a SG), The Hawks, and maybe even Portland would be better suited at the starting point guard spot with TJ.

by B-Huse on Dec 2, 2010 1:36 PM EST reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Welcome to the SB Nation blog about Indiana Pacers. Email: indycornrows@gmail.com

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

D_oh_small
Question for Cornrowers...not Heat vs. Pacers related.

Recent FanPosts

Small
Game 5
1565007530_small
Devil's Take - Pacers dry up, Heat steal one
Small
Wade aging quickly and gracelessly - Bill Reiter, Foxsports
Small
How to improve on game 3
Small
Colin Cowherd- TOTALLY DISRESPECTED THE PACERS, THE CITY AND OUR FANS!!!!!!!!!! (NOT RIGHT)
1565007530_small
Devil's Take - Swagger On, Heat Off
Imagescaphwx17_small
Confusion??
Small
We Need Larry Bird for One More Year
Small
All i Can say is WOW
One-ugly-dog-a78_small
My Email to the NBA (Wade-Collison foul)

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >


Manager

Iclogo_new_small Tom Lewis

Editor

Core_small Nathan S.

Authors

The_outside_world_small Ian Levy

Small Glenn A.