Indy Cornrows: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Around SBN: Can Tebow Say No To Anything?

What I really think about the Pacers

Firing Mel Daniels over his (rumored) spilling the Pacers guts to Peter Vecsey seems like more of a distraction from the story Vecsey ran with than the story itself. Last year Vecsey got loudly bashed by the Bulls organization for writing that John Paxson was going to step down as GM. And after loudly bashing Vecsey, Paxson.... stepped down as GM.

So that brings us to the Pacers and Larry Bird. Based on the various articles and interviews directly with him I've heard,  I find it very believable that Bird might step down at the end of the year. He's never looked like a man happy with "living the life" to me. And if that's the case, I think it's especially improper to extend the coach. If you're a short-timer, don't commit the team to a multi-million dollar expenditure to lock in your buddy. That's not right in any case, but it's especially not right in the case of a that's already struggling financially in a small market

When you see stuff like that going on, it explains why the Pacers are struggling so badly. Good businesses don't do that. Also, good businesses don't have to hire pollsters to tell them what their fans are thinking. It's a relatively extravagant expense that doesn't yield any thing useful. If the Pacers brass is too dense to figure it out on their own, they're going to be too dense to figure out how to use the information they paid for.

At the end of the day, the "cultural" problems are important, but the biggest killer is that this team has repeatedly made poor decisions on talent. Looking across this team, what I see is a serious lack of NBA talent.  We've got one star, Granger, and one guy, Dunleavy, who's an above average but not star player who must be accounted for by opposing defenses. And of course, he's going to be returning for a career threatening injury (or not), so we don't know what he'll really bring. We've guys are are legitimate NBA starters, Murphy and Ford, but who are certainly not above the average for what NBA starters should be.

That's 4 guys, and maybe only 3, with any credibility at all. And you need five guys to start. As prospects go, I think Hibbert and Hansbrough are decent, but good teams don't rely on big contributions from prospects. I think Rush is a mediocre prospect. They're not proven players. Jeff Foster is an above average backup, but paid a lot. Sol Jones is fine, but I'm not sure he's much better than a replacement level player.

Dahntay Jones, Earl Watson, Luther Head... none one of these guys brings much of value in my eyes. If you disagree, fine, but I think if anyone of them went down today, we could find a free agent off the street who could perform at basically the same level. That's especially bad when it comes to D. Jones, a guy we've locked into for 4 years.

So this team has 3-4 good players and three prospects who might become good players but aren't now. And by the way, it's not like we project them to be all-stars.  Can't win with that.

Unfortunately, I don't see any easy ways out, either. Not that there ever is from bad decisions, but the Pacers are capped out, don't have a surplus of draft picks, and don't have players and contracts that look to be in obvious demand to, well, anyone. So I don't see any obvious means of improvement through trade. To get shorter contracts (and thus flexibility), we'd have to give up talent, and we don't have much talent to give up. To get more talent, we'd have to give up shorter contracts, and we don't have much in the way of short contracts to give up.

Poor management? Check!

Poor talent? Check!

Poor finances? Check!

In short, this team has been run into the ground.

2 recs  |  Comment 20 comments

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Display:

Pay the man

Agree on all points … have to say I see a little more in the talent pool than you do but I agree with you on 95% of your write up.

by Man of Pace on Nov 4, 2009 2:39 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Check Please!

This man just nailed what I’ve been saying since the trade deadline last year. Bird has done nothing to move this team in the right direction. When he clutched onto Jeff Foster like he was the missing piece to our championship puzzle and traded a high upside guy in Bayless for a guy who has no upside in Rush all the up to the point where we overpaid D. Jones for four years we’ve been doing nothing but treading water.

by ThirtyOne on Nov 4, 2009 3:13 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Clutching onto Foster may be a little strong since he was ten minutes away from going with Tinsley to Orlando at the deadline last year. If Foster could get healthy enough to be traded, I think he would be but he can’t seem to stay in uniform.

by Tom Lewis on Nov 4, 2009 4:16 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I still think Rush is better than Bayless. Rush will come around.

by ben.renz on Nov 4, 2009 4:20 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah...good article...

I still think Rush will develop into a legit starter, and Dahntay Jones is a little better than advertised, but there is some serious talent-deficiency here.

My championship winning Vandelay Industries from Summer League 2008 would be able to supply at least 3 backups for the Pacers. (Maybe)

by captain flitzy on Nov 4, 2009 3:21 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Great read

I don’t consider Solo, Dahntay, Luther and Earl as a problem thus far. Just so we all remember, the Pacers cap situation is horrific until after next year. The fact they were able to bring in any players this summer was near miraculous and they brought in all four listed above for $7 million. What do you expect for that? After three games they are doing ok. The high end of the payroll is either not playing or not getting it done so far, which is the main problem.

by Tom Lewis on Nov 4, 2009 4:16 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I gotta disagree a bit there.

It’s not that those 3 (Head makes the minimum for one year, so I don’t have a problem with that) are a problem on the court. I do think they’re a problem at their salary level and contract length.

It’s certainly true that we’d already busted the budget already, but that should be even more reason for a cash strapped franchise to shop wisely on its backups. There were plenty of alternatives out there for a fraction of the price.

D. Jones- Des Mason, Ime Udoka, Carney, Pavlovic. All similar players making 1/3 to 1/2 of Jones and tying us up for one one year.
Watson- Bring back Fli?. Jwil, Arroyo, hell… Kevin Ollie.
S. Jones- The Collins brothers, Shelden Williams, Sean May, Johan Petro, Brian Skinner, DJ Mbenga… all similar players making half of Solo, and tying us down for only one year.

Let’s say instead of spending $7M on those three guys, we’d spent $2.5M on three minimum salary guys.

We’d be $4.5M better off financially, and about the same, realistically, on the court.

And it’s not just about saving money. Hell, if we wanted to be creative, we could dump that money into stuff like buying draft picks. There were some decent players available in the late first and early second round, and teams that had an eye for that talent would come in and get it for a million bucks or a future second rounder. I’d feel better about spending on DeJuan Blair, Ty Lawson, or even Chase Buddinger than on Dahntay Jones.

We’d be better off, first, without locking

$7M in the

by Sports2 on Nov 4, 2009 5:15 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Agree with some...

I dont know, Mason hasnt done a thing in years, and JOnes is a better defender than Carney and Pavlovic, although I do like Udoke. Watson is better than all those guards you listed, and I havent seen enough of Solo to make an assumption.

by captain flitzy on Nov 4, 2009 7:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I understand what you're saying

but I think they were trying to fit some pieces on the cheap to play well this year, while still keeping things clear for summer 2011. So we’re talking about $3.some million. The Pacers didn’t want to sell an give up season by bringing in any players for the minimum. But now they have to live with not meeting the expectations they raised and as you mention, a little less cash on the cap.

by Tom Lewis on Nov 4, 2009 7:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Then why 4 years for DJones?

I mentioned it several times, and earlier in another thread.

The NBA is having money problems. Only 6 guys have signed extentions from 2006. That means there are oodles or RFA’s and UFA’s flooding the market over the next 2 offseasons. Why on earth are we clogging this cap up in a misguided effort to win 38 games and pray for the 8th seed? This team is 4-7 players away from being legitimate contenders. Management needed to get over their own ego’s and do what was best for the FRANCHISE LONG TERM.

Instead we’ve got year 5 of the Larry Bird vanity project. Why the hell should we as fans care if this guy comes back? He has been an awful exec. All his moves have been shortsighted and strictly for his instant gratification. If we had a real, diligent, dedicated guy pulling the strings. Chances are we would have already gotten through this rebuild.

" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "

by aaronb on Nov 4, 2009 11:37 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

OKC – Not saying I always agree with Simmons, but hes dead on on this. The Thunder have done the right thing, building a young team to grow together around Durant. I think Bird is trying the same thing, and even though win totals suggest otherwise, to a lesser extent. He is trying to put young guys (Rush, Hibbert, Hansbrough) around Danny, there is one problem. None of the guys hes puting around Danny are good enough to be a first or second guy on a championship type team. Just give me Amare and everything else would take care of itself.

by captain flitzy on Nov 5, 2009 9:48 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I actually don’t mind the off season signings, they are definitely not the issue here. Stop gap measures until the contracts come off the books. We are in Indiana… we aren’t goin to attract marquee free agents.

The drafting, IMO, is a huge issue. Too safe. WAY too safe. You have to take a chance on the draft when you suck.. and the Pacers suck. We need starters… we need a second star.

The Hansbrough pick still drives me freaking insane. He offers us NOTHING. Absolutely nothing. When you suck you don’t need an energy guy (especially one who sucks).

The Rush pick is too safe IMO. Bayless had way more upside (bigger potential to fail too) and is way younger than knee surgery, senior Rush.

part of the reason we are stuck with this roster is the fan reaction to the gangsta Pacers. We had to rid ourselves of O’neal… so we are stuck with ford. We had to rid ourselves of Jackson… so we are stuck with Murphy and always hurt Dunleav. We had ot rid ourselves of tinsley… so we… did nothing lol. We had to rid ourselves or artest, so we basically gave him away.

sigh… so many mistakes…

by dbcb on Nov 5, 2009 1:16 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Partially agree, but it is deeper than that

Alot of the problems also stem from the front office not willing to admit mistakes and bottom out. Isaiah Thomas had many of the same problems as a GM. He tried to win every trade. Therefore he ended up collecting talent. But never a cohesive unit. Examples

1. When Artest finally went off the reservation and had to go. Instead of trading him for picks,prospects or Corey Maggette. They traded him for a Free Agent to be in a misguided attempt to run for a 7/8 seed in the playoffs

2. Once Peja bolted, rather than decide its time to think about rebuilding a broken foundation, they traded a non-lottery protected pick in exchange for a free agent Al Harrington in a SNT.
Not a terrible move in and of itself. But not one that needed to be made if you hadn’t botched the Artest trade (pattern forming)

3. The club Rio incident happens and you decide you need to clean house. So you make the poison pill for onerous contracts swap with GS. Don’t know where else you could have traded Jackson. But my gut is that Bird chose Dunleavy and Murphy over less expensive deals because he truly coveted them. Still steadfastly refusing to rebuild, and losing a lotto pick in the process (pattern alert)

4. Bring in a coach who obviously prefers to play the vets. Failing to develop any young players on the roster. This is really still in play today. More reason that JOB isn’t the guy to turn a young team around.

5. Dumping Jermaine. While it was the right thing to do, should have been the prime time to begin the rebuild. Instead you draft a top 5 talent. Then trade him away for a 23 year old, coming off of ACL repair. Because the 23 year old is more NBA ready. Again making your team just good enough to lose the lottery. Yet not good enough to make the playoffs.

6. After 5 years of limbo, you tie up a 30 year old who was in the D-League 12 months ago to a 4 year contract. Again in a misguided attempt at an 8th seed and first round exit.

Even though you are depleating your cap space in a time when the 2006/2007 draft classes are ALL hitting free agency? Who helps this team more in 2014? Dahantay Jones or Rudy Gay? Jeff Foster or Mike Conley?

There just doesn’t seem to be any semblence of a long term plan. Just random moves and random reactions when those moves predictably produce mediocre results.

" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "

by aaronb on Nov 5, 2009 2:09 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I agree. Safety will get us nowhere. And in five years all those who love the picks of Rush and Hansbrough will see this. Neither of them will be here when we make our turnaround.

by ThirtyOne on Nov 5, 2009 2:16 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I agree the Pacers value "safety"

but in the end, how safe is a pick if we don’t expect a guy to help us turn things around?

What the Pacers really need to be valuing is ridiculous all-world talent. Easier said than done, I know…

by Sports2 on Nov 5, 2009 7:59 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

An outside view

I don’t think the Pacers had a lot of suitors for Harrington & Jackson when they traded them. If they had, they might not have taken Murphy & Dunleavy back. (Then again, maybe not.)

I think the Pacers would have been far better off in terms of long term viability by drafting Bayless (in 08—oh wait….) and Jrue Holiday this year. Yes, you take a hit in the short term, but long term you have a potential starting backcourt. (Isn’t it easy to see how Holiday and Bayless could be a quality backcourt?)

Anyway, I think the problem is that the Pacers are stuck in a catch 22. They have too much money committed at the top with Murphy, Dunleavy, Granger, and the like.

Granger is an All-Star level player, but no one else is. This is the kind of problem the Kings had until 2008 when they traded Artest. They were good enough to win 30-40 games, but not good enough to go anywhere beyond that. The difference, naturally, is that Artest was a lot easier to deal than Murphy or Dunleavy ever will be.

Quite unfortunate given the timing of what happened with Mel Simon’s death. Hopefully the Pacers can endure. The NBA has always done well with the city of Indianapolis in my opinion.

Sorry in advance for restating what many of you said. But, I’m not sure if it’s all LJL’s fault.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on Nov 6, 2009 5:01 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Thanks for the viewpoint pookey.

As a former Hoosier, now living in Sacramento I can appreciate the similarities between the fan base and issues plaguing small market teams. Our rebuilding process has been a slow process, but one that is trying to win both games and the fan base, back to the fieldhouse. The jury is still out on last year’s and this year’s draft picks, but many of us Pacers fans are starting to really like what we see out of Hibbert and Hansbrough (the Bayless for Rush trade is a whole ’nother issue, that one might take a little more time!) And you are right, until some of these high dollar contracts come off the books, this team will be a 30-40 win team.

So far I have been simultaneously pleased and disgusted with the product put out on the court this year. Ahh the growing pains of rebuilding! I am a frequent visitor of Sactown Royalty and get the feeling you guys know what I am talking about!

Good luck this year, I have enjoyed reading your guys’ blog and watching Kings games for the last year and a half. Here’s to rebuilding what were two great small-market NBA teams!

by jantz101 on Nov 7, 2009 1:21 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Uhh...

I agree with you on the Jackson issue. I’ll tell you what, I’ll sell you my car. It’s a 2009 Benz. What are you offering? The rough equivalent to the value of a 2009 Benz, most likely. What about this scenario: I’m seliing my 2009 Benz but I absolutely have to sell it in 2 days, no matter what the best offer is. So, I’m pretty sure you’d most likely offer the value of a 2004 Honda, just to see if it would fly. That was the Jackson/Harrington (who was thrown in to sweeten the deal, remember we wasted the Peja trade exception just to sign him) deal in a nutshell.

As for the top loaded contracts, I agree. But how is that a catch 22? We got rid of problem children to get wholesome guys and the cap took a hit as a result. Look, I love the Pacers, have season tickets even, but the best thing that they can do is gun for the 7th or 8th seed every year until those contracts are up. Does it hurt their draft potential? Yes. But if they don’t at least put a decent product out there, this team is in another city, and nobody wants that. So I’m fine with 8th seed/sweep in the playoffs for a year or two because the casual fan doesn’t want to see “thugs” or “criminals.” I truly believe this team is being built with the bottom line prominently involved, which is never a great way to build a franchise, but it may be the reason that they are still the Indiana Pacers and not the Western Kansas Boll Wevils.

by TheHawk5 on Nov 8, 2009 1:04 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Welcome to the SB Nation blog about Indiana Pacers. Email: indycornrows@gmail.com
Start posting about the Pacers »

Join SB Nation and dive into communities focused on all your favorite teams.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recent FanPosts

Small
Looking for Conseco Primer for Budget Visitor
Small
DANNY CANNOT SHOT
21_small
5 Worst Mistakes in Pacers History
Iphone_7-7-2009_003_small
Random trade idea
Happy_dwight_small
Season Ticket Party
Img_0441_small
We Need Defense
Small
Is Pacers Nation Worried About Danny Granger?
Colts_small
No short term solution for the Pacers
Small
More suggestions from the Peanut Gallery
Danny-granger-doves2_small
How did we get here?

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >


Manager

Iclogo_new_small Tom Lewis

Editor

Reggie2_330_050331_small spstevenson