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0-5 w/ Murph in lineup

It is hard not to notice that the Pacers are 0-5 with Troy Murphy in the lineup.  Murph has a very unique game that can be a lot of fun to watch when he bombing away threes and long jumpers.  When he gets hot from three, he can put points on the board at a blistering pace and help put a game away.  Unfortunately, these games are few and far between and we can't expect him to shoot 5 of 7 from three every night.  When he is not putting up numbers like this, his game too deficient in too many areas for winning, team basketball.  There is an undeniable fact that his game is not conducive to winning basketball games.  He has never been on a winning team and, unfortunately, I think his game has a lot to do with that. 

When you think about what a 4 needs to bring to a team, on the surface, it seems like he does so.  He was second in the NBA last year in rebounds, which is just incredible.  But beyond that, he does very little of what the Pacers need him to.  For instance:

On offense, he brings no physicality or movement.  He often gets the ball at the top of the key to initiate the offense which usually involves a pass on the perimeter, followed by a screen.  He never cuts to the hoop after the screen, making it very easy and predictable to guard which leaves the guy with the ball few options.  He hovers around the top of the key and if he isn't wide open, is virtually useless because he isn't fast enough to beat anyone off the dribble. 

On defense, he is even more limited.  He is not long or quick enough laterally to guard the pick and roll (as evidenced by Charlotte and countless other times) which kills us because the big is open for a jumper or the guard is free to penetrate!  This happens every time!!  When you watch Solo or Danny guard it, they have the reach and/or quickness to contain the guard long enough for the the big to get covered before they rotate back to their original man.  And when the opponent has a faster PF like Josh Smith or Amare, no need for the screen, they just BLOW by him on isolations.  His post up D has gotten better, but taller guys like KG, Duncan, Gasol, Bosh, and Rasheed shoot right over him.  Finally, he provides virtually no help side D, which really hurts.  When he was out, how many times did we see Danny or Solo get the block at the hoop?  Murph just doesn't have the athleticism to compete at a high level on defense and it really hurts the team.  I don't understand how the coaches let this continue!


It is frustrating to see Solo get a DNP- Coach's Decision because he was bringing it defensively every night (although fouling a bit too much), and his mid range game was really blossoming.  And while Danny was giving up size, he always kept his man in front of him and was effective at blocking shots at the rim, not to mention his ability to drive past the opposing teams PF and keep the offense flowing.  What does Murph do except hit the occasional three and grab long rebounds?

I really hope the lineup looks like this when Dunleavy gets back, because I think the tools are there to play efficiently at both ends:

-Hibbert, Granger, Dunleavy, Dahntay, TJ

-Foster/Hansbrough, Solo, Rush, Watson

What do you guys think?

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I'm not one to think stats are everything

But consider this:
With Murphy playing, the team is 0-5. But also note, Hibby’s numbers with Murph: 7.8 pts, 6.6 reb, 1.4 ast, 1.6 blk

Without Murph: Team is 5-1, Hibby: 14.5 pts, 9.6 reb, 2.5 ast, 2.5 blk

So not only are we not winning, it seems as though playing with Murphy is stunting Hibbert’s growth. Note, the reasons why these numbers are so drastically different might have more to do with Murph stealing the rebounds from Roy, not necessarily a bad thing, then with Hibbert playing worse. I don’t know, I just think these are telling statistics. But BenD noted the most telling one: 0-5.

by TheHawk5 on Nov 23, 2009 10:31 AM EST reply actions  

In fairness

Roy and Murph played less than two minutes together yesterday. I’d say Roy’s inconsistency is more on Roy.

by Tom Lewis on Nov 23, 2009 11:05 AM EST up reply actions  

not so sure

i don’t like bashing players, especially pacers because they all work so hard and seem to be a great group of guys. i mean, i’m just sitting here at my computer and it is easy to judge these guys from a far. the struggles are not murph’s fault- but it seems the team’s effectiveness goes down because the style of game changes when he’s in and it doesn’t seem to be conducive with the skills of the other players… my post above is just why i think its happening. i want nothing more than murph to stick it to me so i’ll shut up, but from watching these games as objectively as a die-hard pacers fan can, these seem to be the problems and i think they could definitely effect the production of a lot of players, roy included.

by BenD on Nov 23, 2009 12:01 PM EST up reply actions  

yea tom but...

That’s kind of the point I was thinking… but then that made me start thinking, with the return of Murphy, Roy plays LESS (I haven’t checked the MPG, just assuming, would be interested in knowing, I’ll look in a minute), meaning his numbers go down. I liked Roy in the role he was in, THE guy down low. I guess I am a Hibbert fan, so feel free to take that with a grain of salt. Just seems like Roy knows that with Murph back, he isn’t the only guy doing stuff in the post.

Honestly though, I don’t see this really being a problem in the future, I think that the team will mesh together. The fact that the team is 0-5 with Murphy kind of defeats itself, because it’s just that, only 5 games…

Roy will learn that he can still be the man in the post, Murphy likes it outside, that’s why we like him so much.

~SHaFF!~

by SHaFF87 on Nov 23, 2009 9:45 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree

Let’s not get carried away here.

First three games were a disaster. We’re over those. We then lost to a good Cavaliers team in the fourth quarter, and then the team mailed it in against the Bobcats. That can hardly be pinned on Murph.

Moreover, we’re blaming him for losing the Cavaliers game when he was the ONLY offense for the Pacers for a large portion of the fourth quarter? I seem to remember Murph was the only player scoring points for Indiana in that quarter.

This team has a lot more problems than Troy Murphy.

by Nathan S. on Nov 24, 2009 6:33 AM EST up reply actions  

you're missing the point

ok, clearly the team losing is not all pegged on murph! let just get that cleared up. but you’re missing the point of what i’m saying:

murph does his thing very well (shooting), but it seems to be at the detriment of the rest of the team. when he is in, the ball just rotates around the perimeter and doesn’t go anywhere. i don’t know, i would just much rather have a player that makes the other PF WORK on defense. speaking of defense, you seem to miss this point entirely- he has a hard time playing d (i explain this above) and this is where it really hurts the team.

think about it this way- there are two contenders with a perimeter oriented PF, and that is orlando and phoenix. but i would argue they both have quite an interesting mix of pass first players to compliment this style. plus, the PFs on these teams are much more athletic than murph and defend better. but this style is hard to play effectively, the pacers need the d more than murph’s shooting-

by BenD on Nov 24, 2009 9:16 AM EST up reply actions  

No one is blaming Murphy solely

For each and every loss. This team does have a lot more problems than Murphy, but with Troy in Hibbert plays fewer minutes and does seem like he’s uncomfortable (at least the numbers state that he is). They either need to learn to play together or they need to sit Troy. Hibbert’s improvement is much more important than the steady rebounding and occasional three.

by TheHawk5 on Nov 24, 2009 10:43 AM EST up reply actions  

I have never been a Murphy fan..

He tries… he is just limited. He isn’t a starter on a good team.

Unfortunately, his contract is huge and he isn’t going anywhere via trade.

by dbcb on Nov 23, 2009 10:35 AM EST reply actions  

this I don't agree with.

Murphy is GREAT player, honestly all star caliber. When you a putting up numbers in the same category as Larry Bird, there are no more questions about your talent. I can’t remember exactly but I think the comparison was to finish a season in the top 5 in the league in these 3 categories- 3PT %, rebounds, and …. someone help me I can’t remember.
He’s as solid as it gets, and he’s a VERY hard worker, he deserves a lot of credit that he doesn’t get.

~SHaFF!~

by SHaFF87 on Nov 23, 2009 9:48 PM EST up reply actions  

the contract part though...

is true. He is a great player, but not worth what he is paid for the simple fact that he hasn’t filled out to his full potential, and probably never will. But honestly, with his skills, if he really ever figured it out, he would be an all star.

~SHaFF!~

by SHaFF87 on Nov 23, 2009 9:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Murph is all stats…. no production

and you contradict yourself… you say he is an all star caliber player… but he isn’t worth his contract… which is an all star caliber players contract???

wut?

by dbcb on Nov 24, 2009 1:20 AM EST up reply actions  

i agree

with the all stat, no production. Ive said it a million times, you dont want your PF trailing fast breaks and pulling up 3s. Ton of rebounds in a high powered offense, product of the system.

by captain flitzy on Nov 25, 2009 2:18 PM EST up reply actions  

I love the title of this post

It proves people can still see the truth through the spin of stats ….
just ask John Stockton
Karl Malone
Charles Barkley
Artis Gilmore
Patrick Ewing
Reggie Miller
Mark Jackson
George Gervin
Dominique Wilkins

great stats but have gone to the hall of fame as losers (no title)

Troy does not work hard !!!!!!!!!!!

I cannot believe that after 2 years of posting here … Murphy still gets love … he is awful on defense, offense and not to mention financially …

Who is the only power forward on the team, who is scared of contact?
(not including people who run into his nose)

He is a shooting big man, right …. then why does he not run the pick and roll?
(he does not set picks)

so I MOP today with make this guarentee Troy he will get 10 and 10 for the next 2 years –
then watch him disappear into the NBA graveyard of wasted $
(all he care about is his contract)
His intentions were documented before he was dumped on us 2 years ago

by Man of Pace on Nov 23, 2009 2:01 PM EST reply actions  

when you just push “post a comment”… they go to the bottom

when you reply to a comment (hit the reply button) it goes under the post you are replying too.

you need work on the interwebz

by dbcb on Nov 24, 2009 9:56 AM EST up reply actions  

Trade him then

I say we trade him back to Golden State for Monta Ellis. Ellis is unhappy and he needs to be moved back to his natural position running the offense. Ford is not a consistent point guard.

by notharrison on Nov 24, 2009 5:49 PM EST reply actions  

make that 0-6

wahooooo! murph basically played last night exactly how i described above.

by BenD on Nov 25, 2009 3:00 PM EST reply actions  

There we go

Murph played a great game against the Clips. Held Chris Kaman to 3-19 shooting, and if you buy into the +/- stat, led the team at +17.

I’m not going to say Murph is the second coming of Larry Bird, but he’s useful to this team in its current capacity. The Pacers may only have one win with Murph in the lineup, but those losses are not because of him. Let’s not treat him like Tim Jennings unnecessarily.

by Nathan S. on Nov 25, 2009 9:32 PM EST reply actions  

look at the matchup

yes, he is exceedingly useful when matched up against equally slow, un-athletic bigs like him. notice that the clips aren’t any good either w/ kaman? stats are deceiving, both are the type of un-athletic players that get owned by quicker, more athletic bigs- something every good team has.

by BenD on Nov 30, 2009 8:08 AM EST up reply actions  

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